Firefly Music Videos - Download Now
POSTED BY: Succatash
UPDATED: Thursday, December 4, 2003 00:31
VIEWED: 56712
PAGE 17 of 22
Quote:
Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:Quote:
Originally posted by Viv:
Would be because you are wrong. A lawerly type person has assured me that:
(a) violation of copyright is not theft. Theft has a very specific legal meaning and copyright violation isn't it. Therefore, to argue that fans are 'stealing' from TPTB is, quite simply, wrong in law.
(b) that each fan-vidder, fanfiction writer, fan-artist etc who produces a new derivative work also holds the copyright in that work. They probably can't exploit that copyright but it doesn't stop it from existing.
I have looked into this kids. I have spoken with a real lawyer, not just a lawyerly type.
The 'lawyerly type' would be me. I am in fact a 'real' lawyer, and have been for many years.
Violation of copyright IS theft. (Just as TragicStory stated - plagiarism and copyright law travel down the road hand in hand.)
Er, I don't know who your 'real' lawyer is, but the definition of theft is:
'A person shall be guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it.'
Note that the 'dishonesty' and 'permanent deprivation' elements are vital. I don't see anyone claiming that they own TPTB's copyright. So, oh dear, there goes the dishonesty element. Nor do I see anyone 'permanently depriving' TPTB of their copyright, which remains with TPTB at all times.
There's a reason why theft is an actual criminal offence and breach of copyright (mostly) is a civil matter. Could this be because they are two completely separate matters in law perhaps?
Unfortunately, (the lawyer assured me) most copyright infringement cases do not end in jail. Instead a hefty fine is all most ever get.
'A hefty fine'? Um, no, most copyright cases turn on damages. The person whose copyright has been breached really isn't likely to be interested in any fine, as that money goes to the state. No, what they want is money paid to them by way of damages. That's why most copyright cases are civil claims/suits only, because it's all about the money.
In order for fan vidders to have the rights they want, they must change at least 40% of all aspects of the material that is copyrighted.
I don't know which law you're quoting. Certainly in my jurisdiction there is no '40% rule'. If US law states that this is the case, well, US law will only apply to people who 'publish' in the US. You see, the Berne Convention states that you have to apply local law when trying to enforce copyright, i.e. you have to enforce the law applying where the alleged copyright holder published their offending article.
Which jurisdiction applies to items 'published' on the net hasn't been determined yet, although it's likely to be the place where the ISP is physically located. So, if TPTB want to come after someone who 'publishes' a Firefly vid in Germany, for example, then they'll have to apply German law, not US, notwithstanding that TPTB are an American corporation.
With respect, I would suggest that your 'real lawyer' friend might have explained these rather tricky issues of international law to you before sending you off to post on a bulletin board on the basis of incomplete information that could be rather misleading.
MadragoraNOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
Sorry you have no concept of living in any other society than the one you have made up
But THIS made-up subculture is the one we're talking about, you towering boob! It sure as heck doesn't exist at the supermarket or the town hall or the battlefield where you keep trying to drag it. Don't you get that? It is where you are RIGHT NOW. It's the one that fandom exists in, and it already has well-established, common-sense guidelines and expressions of courtesy and trust that have been working for a long LONG time. Trial and error (and occasional nuclear explosions) have proven and time again that these ways are the best ways for the majority of the fans to exist amicably with other fans. We've also discovered that it only takes one or two jerks to ruin it for the rest of us and make a whole lot of other people unhappy.
You may count yourself among the jerks.
Quote:
Post your stuff. Post a link to it. (more importantly, put it where I can see it)
I believe the answer you've been given is "no".
And you're wrong if you think the mass populace of FF fandom agrees with your views. You're the one who spoiled it for the rest of them and got the vids and art taken down and are forcing the rest of the vidders to go underground and leave their FF projects unreleased. Enjoy reaping what you've sown.
Heh. And you said you were a fan of FF vids. Does the phrase "shooting yourself in the foot" mean anything to you?
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Replying to my own post to say sorry for the crap formatting. I've never posted to this board before and wasn't certain how to format it properly, as is self-evident from my post.
I was, of course, responding to Maniacnumberone, not Viv.
I would also add that running off to seek 'a lawyer's' opinion does not mean that the opinion you seek is actually cast in stone. There's a *reason* why we lawyers spend a lot of time arguing matters in court, you know, which is that matters are seldom clear cut. In my experience the best odds you can *ever* offer a client vis a vis their court case are of the order of 70%, simply because no one goes to litigation if matters are really cut and dried.
I would also add that any good lawyer will advise their client that there are times when, no matter how good a case they have in law, they should give it up because maintaining the underlying relationship with the other persons involved is the most important thing.
That is something you Maniacnumberone and Succatash (apologies if I've spelt that wrong) might like to bear in mind. At the end of the day it's all about people and you seem to have abysmally failed in communicating in a courteous manner with other Firefly fans.
Please tell me, what did you hope to gain by pissing off the vidders to the point that they've pulled their vids from the net? And was it worth it? Because so far as I can see the situation you have engendered results in everyone losing.
Mandragora (who can spell her own name really)
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Interesting how your story changes over time Mandragora. First, you talked with a lawyerly type, now a day later, you are a lawyer. Well done. How long did that take you? What school did you go to? Can I also get my degree in a day? Or rather, if you haven't gotten my sarcasm yet, why are you misrepresenting yourself? You should say up front that you consulted yourself on this matter. Regardless, I do believe you are a lawyer. You see how bitter all this crap has made me? Look, I just dissed on you, and I don't even know you.
As to what I hoped to accomplish - it's simple.
I want all vidders who have made vid's to give credit where it is due, to Joss Whedon. I don't mean putting a note on their website or vid saying that Joss is the original creator either. If they gave adequate cedit to Joss, then they would not be trying to control distribution of those vids. That distribution issue is what started all of this. Myself, and I can only assume the rest of the law-abiding world, want those people to recognize that what they percieve as their original work is actually someone else's, and therefore they have no right to control distrtibution. Is that clear enough? I really couldn't care less if they make a vid. And you know what, I bet (speculation) that Joss wouldn't care either. But, they haven't changed the original work enough to claim what they are claiming. That alone is pissing me off. For example: I may as well chop up Star Wars, set it to some Bob Marley, and post it on my site saying it is my original artwork. Can I then, according to your demented secret society rules control who can download what I put together? Can I? No. I couldn't claim rights to those things, even though I changed around their order. If you are the real lawyer you profess to be, (and I don't doubt that you are) you cannot possibly argue that.
----------------------------------
Who's winning?
I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
----------------------------------
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Channain:
Unfortunately, this thread is a sign of the beginning of the end for Firefly fandom.
I seriously hope not. We're a family here--at least that's how I look at it. And like all families, there will be disagreements and arguments between members. It's only natural. We disagree, we fight, we learn, we grow. It's un-natural if everything was always "good," because it's not. And having whatever that causes ill will bottled up is never good for a community because it'll fester and grow and eventually sickens a community to the point where it can't be cured, can't be fixed, and the community dies.
FIREFLYFANS.NET has always been about building a community of fans. A place to hangout after we've seen an episode of Firefly. A place where we can discuss how good or bad an episode was. A place where we can share and learn. A place to have fun. And, yes, a even place to argue.
Someone asked me a while back what I'll do with this site after Firefly has been cancelled. And I said I'll keep it running and growing because it's for the fans--the community--it's the least I can do. I still believe that. I hope you do as well.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:
Yeah, I had a Firefly site myself. Some traitors shut it down.
Wow. Your twisted grasp of events is truly mind-boggling.
You betrayed a fellow Browncoat and fan artist and spit in the face of her wishes. YOU did. She had done nothing to you other than verbally disagree with you. You retaliated by taking her vid creation and hijacking it onto your server.
The way I see it, you play with fire, you get burned. You started shoving people around and dared them to give you the smackdown, then when you got it you cried like a baby and shouted foul.
I bet you never played football. :)
Nia and heck of a lot of her peers who also create in FF saw the rude and downright underhanded thing you did and closed ranks. They pulled their vids and stopped production on others.
I knew they would do that. Anyone else who's been active in fandom more than a week would know, too. More, I agree with their stance and their actions, because it's the one and only way they have of keeping people like you from walking all over them; by refusing - forgive the crude term, ladies - to put out.
Rule #1 in fandom: do not bite the hand that feeds you. This not only includes the supposed "fans" NOT sending hate letters to Joss Whedon and Mutant Enemy, but also not ticking off that small percentage of creative individuals from whom we get our fannish fixes like vids, art and fiction.
If I followed your line of reasoning regarding fan creations, a fellow should be able to smack his wife in the mouth and get some sugar for it. Don't work that way, though. (hoping this isn't news to you)
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Haken:
I seriously hope not. We're a family here--at least that's how I look at it. And like all families, there will be disagreements and arguments between members. It's only natural. We disagree, we fight, we learn, we grow. It's un-natural if everything was always "good," because it's not. And having whatever that causes ill will bottled up is never good for a community because it'll fester and grow and eventually sickens a community to the point where it can't be cured, can't be fixed, and the community dies.
Yes, it does, doesn't it? I just wish I hadn't seen it so often--I'd probably be a lot less glass-is-half-empty about it. Conflicts with certain unreasonable types has tempted me to step away from fandom for awhile. Since I'm heading up an art show for a local fan run sci-fi convention for the fifth year in a row, I guess I'm still one of the faithful and probably always will be even when it occasionally feels like self-destructive behavior. FIREFLYFANS.NET is the best fan environment I've been in for awhile, and it's hard to see all the yelling going on with the kids, you know?Thanks Haken. I needed that.
"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
As to what I hoped to accomplish - it's simple.
I want all vidders who have made vid's to give credit where it is due, to Joss Whedon.
*LAUGHING*
Oh, *I* get it. Now you're not just another fan with a minority view, you've got (drumroll, please) A MANDATE. I seeeeee. You must become the defender of Joss Whedon's rights, because he so obviously needs your help in doing so.
Ya know, you kinda remind me of those rabid baptist guys on the internet picking fights and flaming catholics because "jesus needs me to defend his name!"
Get the fudge over yourself already.
(PS: does anyone else hear MsAllegro's voice in their head right about now?)
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
Interesting how your story changes over time Mandragora. First, you talked with a lawyerly type, now a day later, you are a lawyer. Well done. How long did that take you? What school did you go to? Can I also get my degree in a day? Or rather, if you haven't gotten my sarcasm yet, why are you misrepresenting yourself? You should say up front that you consulted yourself on this matter. Regardless, I do believe you are a lawyer. You see how bitter all this crap has made me? Look, I just dissed on you, and I don't even know you.
As to what I hoped to accomplish - it's simple.
I want all vidders who have made vid's to give credit where it is due, to Joss Whedon. I don't mean putting a note on their website or vid saying that Joss is the original creator either. If they gave adequate cedit to Joss, then they would not be trying to control distribution of those vids. That distribution issue is what started all of this. Myself, and I can only assume the rest of the law-abiding world, want those people to recognize that what they percieve as their original work is actually someone else's, and therefore they have no right to control distrtibution. Is that clear enough? I really couldn't care less if they make a vid. And you know what, I bet (speculation) that Joss wouldn't care either. But, they haven't changed the original work enough to claim what they are claiming. That alone is pissing me off. For example: I may as well chop up Star Wars, set it to some Bob Marley, and post it on my site saying it is my original artwork. Can I then, according to your demented secret society rules control who can download what I put together? Can I? No. I couldn't claim rights to those things, even though I changed around their order. If you are the real lawyer you profess to be, (and I don't doubt that you are) you cannot possibly argue that.
I suggest that you read posts properly before sounding off. I did not claim to have talked to 'a lawyerly type', it was Viv who made that post. I merely stated that the 'lawyer type' she had talked to was me, which does, I think rather render your sarcasm otiose.
As for what you want... Oh dear. What world do you live in? Because it certainly isn't one that I recognise. You know, the real world?
So far as I am aware the vidders do give credit where it's due to the original creator, Joss Whedon, or some variant thereof, in their disclaimer. As for the actual vids themselves, although they are clearly derivative works, the copyright to said derivative works, i.e. the vids themselves rests with the *vidders*.
Those vids are *theirs*. Is that clear enough for you? Those vids do *not* belong to Joss Whedon, or fandom as a whole and they most *certainly* do not belong to you.
Whether those vids breach Joss Whedon's copyright is a question of fact, and each vid will have to be considered on an individual basis including whether the vidder in question has 'changed it enough'. However, this is a point that should be decided by someone who actually knows copyright law, such as a judge, not someone such as yourself who is regurgitating poorly understood points of law.
*If* there is an actual breach of Joss Whedon's copyright then he has the right to insist that the offending vid[s] be taken down, ceased to be 'published', maybe (depending on the circumstances) even be destroyed. What he does *not* have the right to do is to claim ownership of those vids because they do *not belong to him*. They belong to the vidders.
As owners of the vids, then the vidders certainly have the right to control distribution. Whether they can *enforce* that right, given that the vids are derivative works and in the real world - you know, the one that most of us live in - calling attention to oneself and possibly incurring the wrath of TPTB is generally considered *not to be a good thing*, is a different matter.
*That* is why media fandom relies on certain 'rules', which pretty much boil down to:
Ask first for permission tNOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by hooobity:
[BIf I followed your line of reasoning regarding fan creations, a fellow should be able to smack his wife in the mouth and get some sugar for it. Don't work that way, though. (hoping this isn't news to you)
You did not follow my line of reasoning correctly. It is now obvious you are following very little correctly.
Let me explain again, just for you, hooober.
Using your own analogy it may be easier for you to grasp.
"a fellow smacks his wife in the mouth" -translation - vidders appropriate Joss's Firefly episodes and post them without changing them enough.
"they want sugar for it" translation - they want to control distribution rights.
And you are very right.
It doesn't work that way.
And a side note to Mandragora - according to your definition of theft, I could go up to anyone, steal anything they own and it wouldn't be theft if I intended to give it back eventually, say after 50 years. That word "permanently" will get you into a lot of trouble.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME