The Reavers equate to Native Americans?

POSTED BY: Novagrass
UPDATED: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 00:00
VIEWED: 9834
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HJERMSTED

Thursday, June 13, 2002 7:29 PM

For decades Hollywood stereotyped Native Americans as ruthless savages. In the past twenty years or so the industry has wisely moved away from the stereotype because A)Reasonable people of all persuasions saw through it and took offense to it and B)history simply didn't support it in the broad sense (violent tribes were the minority of the 500 nations).

In Firefly it seems there will be a group (The Reavers) that on the surface appear to be ruthless savages (though I remind you: nothing is ever surface-level in Whedon Country). I doubt there will be any "indian cliche" controversy unless the show literally states that these Reavers are indeed descended from Earth's indigenous cultures (and they would have to be from Earth originally because there are no aliens in this show). I seriously doubt that this will be the case.

The Reavers are probably more like violent pirates who have mutated (socially, intellectually as well as physically). I guarantee they'll be given depth and that one or two of the Reavers will explore the gray area between good and evil.

As for the gay/lesbian, black/white thing... I see the characters in the Buffyverse as individuals, not members of this social demographic or that. It's okay to point out a show's tendencies but drawing conclusions of racism or homophobia is a bit knee-jerk (emphasis on the "jerk").

As far as I can tell, Buffy had the truest portrayal of a lesbian relationship that we're likely to see on TV in a long time and last season women outnumbered the men 2 to 1 in most episodes. Plenty of white men have died on the two Buffyverse shows (two high school principals, a mayor, a mayor's assistant, Warren, Rack, Adam, Holtz, John Ritter... how big do you want this list to get?) but no one is decrying the "Joss hates Whitey" nature of that.

And rightly so. This show isn't about the isms or the tidy little categories that we put people into. Sometimes all that identity stuff can be quite limiting, actually.

Having said all that, I DO find it odd that these characters went to California public school all those years (and then on to a college in the same state) without making more black, latino or asian friends. The oversight, however, is institutional in nature (most WB shows seem to have this problem). Central casting definitely has a glitch somewhere.

mattro

MALCOLM

Thursday, June 13, 2002 8:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hjermsted:
For decades Hollywood stereotyped Native Americans as ruthless savages. In the past twenty years or so the industry has wisely moved away from the stereotype because A)Reasonable people of all persuasions saw through it and took offense to it and B)history simply didn't support it in the broad sense (violent tribes were the minority of the 500 nations).

In Firefly it seems there will be a group (The Reavers) that on the surface appear to be ruthless savages (though I remind you: nothing is ever surface-level in Whedon Country). I doubt there will be any "indian cliche" controversy unless the show literally states that these Reavers are indeed descended from Earth's indigenous cultures (and they would have to be from Earth originally because there are no aliens in this show). I seriously doubt that this will be the case.

The Reavers are probably more like violent pirates who have mutated (socially, intellectually as well as physically). I guarantee they'll be given depth and that one or two of the Reavers will explore the gray area between good and evil.

As for the gay/lesbian, black/white thing... I see the characters in the Buffyverse as individuals, not members of this social demographic or that. It's okay to point out a show's tendencies but drawing conclusions of racism or homophobia is a bit knee-jerk (emphasis on the "jerk").

As far as I can tell, Buffy had the truest portrayal of a lesbian relationship that we're likely to see on TV in a long time and last season women outnumbered the men 2 to 1 in most episodes. Plenty of white men have died on the two Buffyverse shows (two high school principals, a mayor, a mayor's assistant, Warren, Rack, Adam, Holtz, John Ritter... how big do you want this list to get?) but no one is decrying the "Joss hates Whitey" nature of that.

And rightly so. This show isn't about the isms or the tidy little categories that we put people into. Sometimes all that identity stuff can be quite limiting, actually.

Having said all that, I DO find it odd that these characters went to California public school all those years (and then on to a college in the same state) without making more black, latino or asian friends. The oversight, however, is institutional in nature (most WB shows seem to have this problem). Central casting definitely has a glitch somewhere.

mattro

ZICSOFT

Thursday, June 13, 2002 9:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by tlsmith1963:
I'm only just starting to watch Buffy (Season 1 on DVD), but I had heard already that Willow is a lesbian. It seems like they were dropping clues right from the beginning because in an early episode Xander says that Willow always gives him good advice on how to treat a woman. He also says that she is like a guy, which is stereotypical, but there you go!

Tammy

Interesting observations. One way of looking at it is that Willow was always gay, but the writers didn't know it until Season 4!

Then again why do we need to apply labels here? She doesn't go through the stereotypical BS where she realizes she likes scoping other girls. In season 4 (this is kind of a spoiler, but if you're reading this thread you can figure this for yourself) she ends one long-term relationship and begins another. The fact that one lover is a guy and the other is a girl is less important than her feelings for both of them. The important part of the story is the feelings, the love she shows for both people and they show for her. All the technicalities about "gay" and "straight" and "bi" are just that -- technicalities.

NINE

Wednesday, July 3, 2002 2:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hjermsted:
unless the show literally states that these Reavers are indeed descended from Earth's indigenous cultures (and they would have to be from Earth originally because there are no aliens in this show).

Has it been said that these are humans and that they're from earth?
I know Joss was anti-bumpy-forehead, for cliche worth and a potential world take-over by the prosthetics industry.

But just coz all the actors remain unchanged, they might still be aliens, like everyone in space talking Americanised-English!

Besides which, if they were from a non-earth planet, that wouldnt make them aliens coz its only from their POV. Aliens would be anyone from another planet.

I also like the fact that my 'interstellar spaniards' theory has gained some more impetus. It was the only logical explanation for the horses to appear in Planet of the Apeas, and here they are again!

___________
"His thoughts were red thoughts, and his teeth were white."

NOVAGRASS

Wednesday, July 3, 2002 4:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by nine:
Quote:
Originally posted by Hjermsted:
unless the show literally states that these Reavers are indeed descended from Earth's indigenous cultures (and they would have to be from Earth originally because there are no aliens in this show).

Has it been said that these are humans and that they're from earth?
I know Joss was anti-bumpy-forehead, for cliche worth and a potential world take-over by the prosthetics industry.

But just coz all the actors remain unchanged, they might still be aliens, like everyone in space talking Americanised-English!

Besides which, if they were from a non-earth planet, that wouldnt make them aliens coz its only from their POV. Aliens would be anyone from another planet.

I also like the fact that my 'interstellar spaniards' theory has gained some more impetus. It was the only logical explanation for the horses to appear in Planet of the Apeas, and here they are again!

___________
"His thoughts were red thoughts, and his teeth were white."

While the people themselves are not *technically* from Earth, their species is human and originates from Earth.

Joss has explained that these are humans, that Earth has been abandoned/destroyed, and that they have spread out to many different planets. These planets are ruled over by two central planets (these planets would equate to Washington DC, I'd imagine).

The characters are all human, but Earth is gone.

--Dylan Palmer, aka NoVaGrAsS--

This one's for Furyfire...

TIEKA

Wednesday, July 3, 2002 5:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Novagrass:
Joss has explained that these are humans, that Earth has been abandoned/destroyed, and that they have spread out to many different planets. These planets are ruled over by two central planets (these planets would equate to Washington DC, I'd imagine).

With TWO central planets, I see a lot of room for conflict, confusion, and political turmoil. No matter how much like each other they are, or how powerful the individuals in charge, with TWO planets, there will not be true unity. I expect to find out that some "pirates" are actually paid by one planet to disrupt the other planet's activities. Which means that it is possible that one or more members of Serenity's crew could be working for the government. Just wait until the captain finds out.

Once you've been in Serenity, you never leave. You just learn to live there. --Firefly script

MOJOECA

Wednesday, July 3, 2002 6:00 PM

My guess is that Reavers are certain factions of colonists who fought alongside Mal. They're different from him in that they haven't given up, or refuse to.

They're probably engaging in postwar guerrilla fighting, terrorism. So the Native American connection still stands. Let me backtrack -- don't mean to say that NAs were terrorists. They intercepted supply lines and frontier people to hold their territory against increasing encroachment. Probably what the Reavers are doing.

--- Joe

COMMONSENSEMAN

Monday, July 22, 2002 10:19 AM

Well I just watched the Pilot, if you want to read about my views on it go check out the episode discussion thread area.

Reaver Spoilers
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They do not give you much on the Reavers in this first episode. All you get to learn is they are bad mo fo's and most likely insane.

They are given a wide bearth by all and to run afoul of them is your worst nightmare.

As one crewmember said.

"They will rape you to death, eat your flesh, and sew your skin into their clothes, and if you are very, very lucky in that order."

So that makes an interesting mental picture to say the least.

Out........................

Shedding the light of common sense.

NOVAGRASS

Wednesday, August 7, 2002 9:46 PM

"On the other side he has mindless savages called Reavers, which are a lot less complicated. You see them and you run. They're not monsters. What they are, are people who went out into space, saw the extraordinary nothingness and went completely out of their heads. They've become cannibalistic marauding savages. They're kind of like the Comanche in the old movies except without playing it as a racial thing at all, or even a cultural thing. It's a very personal thing. These are men who just gave up on the concept of humanity and are the scariest, worst, most awful serial-killing pirates who ever sailed around in burnt out ships in space. Everybody is terrified of them — Yeah, they're really fun ." (Interview with Joss from Scifi.com)

So, looks like he's going with the Reaver-Native American thing. I think it'll be interesting, to tell you the truth.

People will shout "racism!" but really, that's not what this is at all. The "savage marauder" is a key figure in western stories. You can't tell a long running western story without running into some sort of Native American figure sooner or later. It's just good that Joss has recognized this cliche early so that he can tackle it and turn it upside down, as he tends to do.

--Dylan Palmer, aka NoVaGrAsS--

The Ultimate Buffy-Angel Quote Generator™
Principal Snyder: "Are you a soldier?"
Xander: "I'm a comfortador."
Principal Snyder: "You're neither. You're a whipping boy, raised by mongrels, and set on a sacrificial stone."
Xander: "I'm getting a cramp."

HAKEN

Wednesday, August 7, 2002 10:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Novagrass:
People will shout "racism!" but really, that's not what this is at all. The "savage marauder" is a key figure in western stories. You can't tell a long running western story without running into some sort of Native American figure sooner or later. It's just good that Joss has recognized this cliche early so that he can tackle it and turn it upside down, as he tends to do.

While not racism, I do have a slight problem with the idea of the Reavers. I know this is scifi and understands that the level of realism is skewed. However, when Joss uses Hill Street Blue as a point of comparison for Firefly, I have to ask myself whether his "mindless savages" characterization of the Reavers is just a bit too one dimensional and too cliched.

Even savages have culture, no matter how minute, for the purpose of self preservation--a core survival instinct. The Reavers may be vastly different from what we would consider civilized, but at the end of the day, when they're done raping some poor woman and bagging her kids for dinner, they have to go home to somewhere to be with someone and do familial things; perhaps even kick that newly won dicapitated head of the father around with the little Reaver kids.

The point is, the Reavers can't be completely mindless savages. Nothing can be that and expect to survive for long. Otherwise, they'll just dwindle and die off after a generation or less.

Unless, of course, some "civilized" group of people come along and slaughter them all first. Oh, that's right, that's not what this is about.

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