Firefly Music Videos - Download Now
POSTED BY: Succatash
UPDATED: Thursday, December 4, 2003 00:31
VIEWED: 56712
PAGE 10 of 22
Shiny, the request was regarding mirroring the vids, which is why so many of us are upset. The creator (Nia) asked him to take them down very politely, especially considering she had just explained in a different thread on this board why hosting was a tricky subject even with permission. Succatash refused, and mockingly held a "vote" on his site as to whether he should keep the vids. When the results were overwhelmingly not to his liking, he tried changing the wording to trip people up. At some point, his page was taken down by his ISP.
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Hosting, Shiny. Here's what happened: A fan gave a VCD of vids to Nathan Fillion. She didn't ask the vidders for permission. In fact, the vidders didn't even know about it until after the fact. I was one of them, btw. We found this out just before she would have given a copy of the VCD to Joss Whedon.
In anticipation of trouble (which could still happen), all of us removed our vids from our sites until the whole thing had blown over.
Someone here asked where all the vids had gone. Someone else said he had a couple on his hard drive and said he would upload them to his site. He did not ask the vidder's permission. One of the vidders found out and requested he take them down. He complied.
Then Succatash decided that vids were "public domain" and uploaded them to HIS site. Again, the vidder requested her vids not be hosted. Succatash refused to remove them. Word got out. Someone wrote to his web hoster and said he was hosting material belonging to someone else and against their express wishes. His site came down. In retaliation, Succatash (or possibly Maniac, since Maniac threatened to "send Nia to jail") wrote to the vidder's web host and tried to get her site TOSed.
And since then, it's all gotten rather nasty. Or, I should say, nastier. Since the attempted TOSing of Nia's site, people have become worried and started removing Firefly content from their sites as well. I've removed all my screen captures along with my vids because I suspect I will be next.
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In response to VIV:
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So...what your saying is, anyone, who does ANY type of fan art should just let anyone take it?
So all the people who do photomanips, all the artists who draw pictures for a show, all that is free for you to grab and do with what you will?
Basically yes. From what I understand of the situation Succatash merely hosted a vid which was already being circulated. Had he claimed it as his own, given credit to someone else or edited it in any way, then I could understand the outrage and rightly so. However the cat is already out of the bag, so to speak. There is no way that Nia can erase what she has done anymore than Mettalica can stop .mp3s. What I object to is her responce to his denial. It was way above and beyond what the situation called for.
If someone puts something on the internet with the express porpose of it being seen for free, then they have no say in how far it goes. They are giving it to the world. I'm sure Succatash loved the vid and wanted to share it in the same way that Nia originally did.
If you only want a select number of people to see it, then don't freely distribute it. Plain and simple.
As for pissing of fans/vidder/etc. I imagine that most of them make it because they want to. I also imagine that you are siding with a fellow vidder. If this was your video why would you not want it to be seen by as many people possible?
I know I don't host my stuff, I give it to people and they do what they will. If I really want a firefly vid I will make one or more likly as is the case, I will hear a song, get inspired and sit down for 10 hours straight. I do it because I love to do it. After it is done I would like people to enjoy it. I'm not out for awards or glory, if you are then we are on different wavelengths.
Now onto DEBCHAN:
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Yes. Yes I do think that if I put hours into creating something I should have a say. My fiction may be based on characters someone else created, but the work itself is mine. My vids may be created using source material I didn't shoot and produce myself, but the finished product is mine. And if I say "Don't archive my fiction without my permission" or "Don't give a copy of my vid to somone connected to the show" I expect that to be respected.
Once again I must ask WHY. Do you honestly think that if you are willing to infringe on the copyrighted material of Fox and Co. that I should not infringe upon yours. That's the kettle calling the pot black. If you do not fear the long arm of corporate america, then why should I fear yours?
My fansub analogy is correct. Succatash had to "pay" for Nia's fanvid by losing his site, getting blacklisted, most likly harrassed by the server's lawyer and now getting verbally assaulted for defending himself. And all of this for something that can probably be gotten off of any number of p2p programs. He got cheated.
Again you argue over the control that the fan-vidder should have. I am arguing that that control does not exist. I don't think that they should give it up for the good of fandom, I just don't honestly think that it can be controlled.
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But when it's shoved in their face, they have no choice but to react. If you've read the entire thread, you should have seen that the vids came off the net for good reason; someone gave a VCD of them to Nathan Fillion. The vidders found out and reacted in the only way they could to protect themselves. They pulled them off the net. Chances are that once things cooled down, they would have come back. But they won't now.
So a perfect example of that would be when Nia wrote to succatash's ISP and shoved it in thier face.
Secondly, this quote proves that you too feel that fan-vidding is illegal. Otherwise, it would not have been pulled off the net. So now we are back to the argument of why you feel your illegal work should be protected.
My two arguments main arguments are:
1. Nia overreacted. How do you think Nia would feel if he mailed a copy of her vid to Fox along with
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Thanks for the clarification, DebChan. The discussion about the VCD came into the thread somewhat abruptly, and I think that some of the arguments got confused between the two.
I think I have a link to the netiquette of caching and mirroring somewhere, I'll see if I can dig it up.
Ultimately, offering to mirror content is nice because it conserves bandwith and helps to promote and distribute the original content, but should only be done with the content creator/owner's permission. There are legitimate reasons why someone might not want their content cached/mirrored, including banner ad revenue (not relevant here), collecting statistics, managing updates to the content, promoting the site its hosted on, ensuring a specific user experience, etc.
And while it is true that the fan vids are based on material copyrighted by someone other than the creator, I would point out that this web site is too (look at the bottom right of the screen):
"All FIREFLY related graphics and photos on this page are copyright 2002 Mutant Enemy, Inc. and 20th Century Fox"
I think most people would prefer to look the other way and continue to enjoy both Haken's excellent site and these great vids rather than force the copyright issue. I would hate to have every scrap of FOX or ME copyrighted content, images, scripts, etc. removed from this site (although I could do without the image of the skinned guy from 'bushwhacked' -- yuck!) 
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Originally posted by TragicStory:
2a. Fans should do it for love of the show and then let thier creation loose instead of trying to fight the inevitable. Once it is on MY hard drive, it is MINE.
By that argument, anything I put on my computer is MINE and I can do with it what I wish.
Somehow, I doubt that the owners of all the books, movies, etc that I could distribute via my computer would agree with that. And the judge who sends me to jail isn't about to either.
Also, it's hard to call making vids and whatnot theft in those terms. We all know the vid makers don't own Firefly. But by your definition, you can download my fanfiction, do whatever you like to it and re-upload it without giving me credit. Tell me, does that sound right?
Arguing with you is probably pointless; you've made up your mind. However, I would like to add that no matter how pissed Succutash was, there isn't much of an excuse for calling people, I believe it was 'fat-assed twinkie eating women.'
I wouldn't defend a person who said that if he was the pope.
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>The reason the vids have come down is become no one wants to get busted.>
The only real reason the vids are down is because you and maniacnumberone have made it widely known that you're prowling the fandom like a couple of of mangey, flea-bitten coyotes. You have made it quite clear that you will steal any FF vid from their creators and ignore their wishes about distribution if the vids go back up.
Thus, they will not go up.
Period.
And don't gimme any of that crud about "we can't steal it, they already stole the material to make the vids!" because you could take the numbers in fandom who care/believe that point and safely stuff it up your nose.
If I spend 50 hours making a vid, I should at least be treated courteously and with SOME measure of appreciation by the fandom who wants to see it, not bent over and given the shaft by pea-brain, atavistic churls like you who never absorbed the most rudimentary of lessons in successful social interaction.
FACT: only a fraction of any fandom actually *produces* the fan art, the fiction, the vids, etc. This small but active percentage is what pushes fandom from being a group of people with like interests into a living, breathing community.
Alienate that creative percentage, and you gut the fandom.
That's why we respect the fan artists. That's why we take their wishes into consideration when it comes to their vids and fic and art. Why? Do I have to spell it out for you? So that more will follow! They don't OWE us or the fandom OR YOU a durned thing. Never did. Never will. I suggest you take that high-handed sense of entitlement you've gifted yourself with and sell it to buy a clue.
Yes, fandom is a community. A community has rules. I don't care about your personal pet philosophy on the matter and there will sooner be pork on Mars before it's adopted as the norm. But hey, this has worked out great for you! You didn't want to be a part of our community. Guess what? You no longer are.
You're free! Now you and maniacnumberone can go and start a commune for pompous, self-entitled suckpuppets. Population: 2.
You guys should also invest some cash in video cards and new software if you ever want to see another FF vid, because your well just dried up.
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Quote:
Originally posted by TragicStory:
My two arguments main arguments are:
1. Nia overreacted. How do you think Nia would feel if he mailed a copy of her vid to Fox along with her I.P. Address and I.P. provider? Or write to the ISP provider personally. All of this is within his power. He hasn't done it because I assume he feels it would be overreacting as well.
Well, SOMEONE wrote to Nia's ISP and tried to get her TOSed. As far as the other, how do we know he hasn't?
I don't know how long you've been active in fandom, but there are acccepted fannish standards. One of them is: When someone asks you to not host a creative work, you take it down. Period. Whether you think they're right or wrong, whether you think it's fair of not, you just do it, or eventually you will not be welcome in that fandom anymore. Or, as has happened here, people who DO create in that fandom will stop.
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2a. Fans should do it for love of the show and then let thier creation loose instead of trying to fight the inevitable. Once it is on MY hard drive, it is MINE.
If you vid, then you know it's a labor of love. And yes, once you've downloaded my vid, you can do with it whatever you will. That includes giving it to other people, actors, Joss Whedon, or uploading it to your website and not taking it down when I ask. What is the result? I no longer vid. Other vidders (and it's a rather large community) find out about this and decide they no longer want to risk have vids online. We all KNOW there's a risk in having vids online. We rely on the courtesy of other fans to respect our wishes when it comes to our vids. When it's clear we cannot do that, we stop sharing our vids, because, guess what? It's not fun anymore and not worth the effort.
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2b. No matter how you look at it, what we do is theft. Plain and simple. No two ways about it.
I don't know why this keeps coming up. No one is saying vids aren't created using material belonging to someone else. However, the finished product (yes, yes, I know you disagree) is uniquely mine. You and I could pick the same song and do a vid in the same fandom, and I will bet you everything I own that the two vids will be totally different. Do I *own* the clips? No. Do I own the music? No. Do I own my own creation? Yes indeed I do.
You're quite free to disagree with me. It won't change my mind. And finally, your other point.
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If you only want a select number of people to see it, then don't freely distribute it. Plain and simple.
Done and done.
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Originally posted by hoobity:
Yes, fandom is a community. A community has rules. I don't care about your personal pet philosophy on the matter and there will sooner be pork on Mars before it's adopted as the norm. But hey, this has worked out great for you! You didn't want to be a part of our community. Guess what? You no longer are.
You're free! Now you and maniacnumberone can go and start a commune for pompous, self-entitled suckpuppets. Population: 2.
You guys should also invest some cash in video cards and new software if you ever want to see another FF vid, because your well just dried up.
On behalf of fat twinkie-eating women (I also write doofy fanfic) everywhere: Shut up already! Gawd.
Y'all took your barbies and went home. Fine, okay, we get it. We got it 25 posts ago.
Nobody is totally right and nobody is totally wrong.
And as much as I'd like to see a shiny fuzzy community of all Firefly fans everywhere, I'll stick with this one and you stick with yours and we can ignore each other til we go away. I've seen a lot of new nicks in this thread. Older, even more recent and more active nicks know that Succatash is a good guy, fun and well-liked and generally plays well with others. I'll take his community or any other, vids or no vids.
I'll personally circle the wagons. Y'all don't want to be a part, don't. Go.
Sarah
I'm a dying breed who still believes, haunted by American dreams. ---Neko Case
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Quote:
1. Nia overreacted. How do you think Nia would feel if he mailed a copy of her vid to Fox along with her I.P. Address and I.P. provider? Or write to the ISP provider personally. All of this is within his power. He hasn't done it because I assume he feels it would be overreacting as well.
Yes, he has. Nia's ISP got a letter from Succatash and/or Maniac (we presume). She resolved the situation successfully with her ISP and keep her domain running, because she did nothing wrong, unlike Succatash. She has also been very closely exposed to the first situation you described there with her vids being burned to that VCD and handed to Nate Fillion.
Nia simply chose not to further heat the debate here by calling Succatash and Maniac on their going to her ISP in a vain attempt to harass her, for which she should be commended, imo. I saw her response to the situation (which I am not linking to, b/c I think she has had trouble enough from Succatash and Maniac) and it was incredibly mature and rational. She didn't overreact in the first place. If it had been my work, I would have gone straightaway to Succatash's ISP without so much as the warning she gave him.
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Well, SOMEONE wrote to Nia's ISP and tried to get her TOSed. As far as the other, how do we know he hasn't?
Well, it wasn't me but I am sure she got upset about it. So now she knows how he feels.
As far as fanish "rules" I live in a completly different online community as far as that goes. I follow the rules of my community and frankly, they clash with yours. Sorry, that's life. I know the fanners in my community don't even try to stop what they start.
There is very little risk involved in doing fan suff and annonimity is always availible.
I guess we will agree to disagree on the ownership issue.
Finally, I suggest that you look into programs such as hotline, irc or Revanex. Each gives you control over who you allow to download (of course as stated before, once its out of your hands, well, its out of your hands.) But it is a good way to get files to a select few.
Last but not least I give it 2 weeks until the fan stuff starts up again. What can I say? its addictive.
"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger
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