More Western than a Wagon Train to the Stars - Spoiler Discussion

POSTED BY: feralwanderer
UPDATED: Thursday, June 1, 2006 11:42
VIEWED: 16968
PAGE 2 of 6

PREV PAGE 1 2 3 4 5 6 NEXT PAGE

J

Tuesday, June 11, 2002 8:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mojoeca:
...I accept that there is a niche (a large one) in sci-fi fandom that demands science fact. That's cool...

--- Joe

It's that "science" in the term "science fiction" that makes us crazy like that.

Seriously - I come from a print SF perspective. I watch plenty of media SF but it's an entirely different beast - which isn't of the good, to me. In print SF there are much more rigorous standards for the S in SF - with some notable exceptions - and I prefer this. You get a freebie, like "Okay, we can go faster than light on this ship" but the tendency is to try to get everything else right and, even with FTL, to convey that in a hypothetically convincing way.

I agree that character/plot/theme is the essential element but to be SF the technology has to at least a) relate to, explain, and condition character/plot/theme and b) not get in the way of suspension of disbelief. So it depends on the presentation. If this is an SF show, it's going to be nitpicked like one. If it's a technobabble show like ST, I don't really see the point of nitpicking anything but logical, rather than physical, absurdities. If it's a space fantasy, like Star Wars, you can get away with even more. If all else fails, invoke "the Force". I think it's just the complete absence of anything even resembling genuine hard SF in television that has a portion of fans really wanting something plausible.

FERALWANDERER

Tuesday, June 11, 2002 8:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by J:
Quote:
Originally posted by mojoeca:
...I accept that there is a niche (a large one) in sci-fi fandom that demands science fact. That's cool...

--- Joe

SNIP
I think it's just the complete absence of anything even resembling genuine hard SF in television that has a portion of fans really wanting something plausible.

And from what I recall of this project Joss was shooting for an counter-Star Trek feeling series, which suggests less techno babble, jump suits, rubber foreheads and flashy equipment. So I am very curious what the rational he has come up with that makes everything circa 1870 - clothes and guns. For me the rational is a big deal because its so clearly a regressive technological step it begs for an explanation...and a good one at that.

Jason
Sydney, Australia

ZICSOFT

Tuesday, June 11, 2002 10:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by feralwanderer:

And from what I recall of this project Joss was shooting for an counter-Star Trek feeling series, which suggests less techno babble, jump suits, rubber foreheads

Not rubber. Latex.

http://www.insanity.com.au/firefly/2002/01/24.htm

Quote:
and flashy equipment. So I am very curious what the rational he has come up with that makes everything circa 1870 - clothes and guns. For me the rational is a big deal because its so clearly a regressive technological step it begs for an explanation...and a good one at that.

Well, some of it should be pretty obvious. Most of the stories take place on "frontier planets" with no industry. People in the "core planets" ride around in air cars (there are shots of this on the Fox site) wear futuristic clothes, etc. But out on the frontier, those things are expensive imports, so people ride horses, wear clothes manufactured locally by relatively low-tech factories, etc.

Also, a lot of the "western look" is just that -- a desire to look a certain way. So the guns look vaguely like Remington six-shooters, but obviously aren't. And the Serenity looks vaguely like an old steam engine -- if the engine were manufactured by Boeing and could fly!

ZICSOFT

Tuesday, June 11, 2002 10:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by J:

Seriously - I come from a print SF perspective. I watch plenty of media SF but it's an entirely different beast - which isn't of the good, to me.

I basically agree, but even a lot a of print SF is of the level you describe. Even ignoring movie and TV adaptations and tie-ins, most print SF seems to be written for people who just want to zone out in an alternative universe for a couple of hours, and damned with the explanations.

FERALWANDERER

Wednesday, June 12, 2002 10:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
Quote:
Originally posted by feralwanderer:

And from what I recall of this project Joss was shooting for an counter-Star Trek feeling series, which suggests less techno babble, jump suits, rubber foreheads

Not rubber. Latex.

:)

Quote:
and flashy equipment. So I am very curious what the rational he has come up with that makes everything circa 1870 - clothes and guns. For me the rational is a big deal because its so clearly a regressive technological step it begs for an explanation...and a good one at that.
Well, some of it should be pretty obvious. Most of the stories take place on "frontier planets" with no industry. People in the "core planets" ride around in air cars (there are shots of this on the Fox site) wear futuristic clothes, etc. But out on the frontier, those things are expensive imports, so people ride horses, wear clothes manufactured locally by relatively low-tech factories, etc.

Also, a lot of the "western look" is just that -- a desire to look a certain way. So the guns look vaguely like Remington six-shooters, but obviously aren't. And the Serenity looks vaguely like an old steam engine -- if the engine were manufactured by Boeing and could fly!

Well I guess the need for "simple" field tech suggests a regression, but is it really easier to make wheel guns and such simple firearms, as opposed to a more modern hyrbid semiautomatic specifically designed to have simple to produce (with CAD CAM - an essential tool for any colony)?

As for look, I am cool with the look, I just want some solid rational. What you suggest makes lots of sense for clothes and everything western, but I hope we get some detail as to why so much tech and clothes is western and why other stuff clearly isn't. This goes for the war flashbacks as well. Surely if the captain was in a war not long ago there should be plenty of military surplus out there that's more advanced that circa 1870... Perhaps the war dragged for generations and tehc regressed...but the wars of the 20th century would actually suggest the opposite - we had soem of our biggest tech advance spurts then...

Anyway, I am looking forward to the depth I like to think Joss has behind this look.

Jason

SHUGGIE

Wednesday, June 12, 2002 4:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by feralwanderer:
Perhaps the war dragged for generations and tehc regressed...but the wars of the 20th century would actually suggest the opposite - we had soem of our biggest tech advance spurts then...

Yeah but 20th century conflicts have not dragged out for generations. Conflicts which do drag out over an extended period do tend to end up with an odd-ball mixture of technology. So if you have a situation where some people have lasers, others have revolvers etc that could be plausible. If it's all revolvers/shotguns then some explanation is probably needed.

Shug

Her lips were saying 'No' but then I looked into her eyes
... and her eyes were saying 'read my lips'
- Niles Crane

NOVAGRASS

Thursday, June 13, 2002 1:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mojoeca:
No lasers; the guns shoot bullets. I saw a clip on CNN (Wanda discussing fall lineup) where a gun was fired.

--- Joe

Couldn't the "bullets" be something like plasma bullets? On the gun designs I've seen there really isn't a place to load ammunition... so I see it as more of a plasma/photon/whatever pistol. Maybe I'm wrong, cause I haven't seen the weapons fired.

--Dylan Palmer, aka NoVaGrAsS--

... I guess it's a Joss thing...

MOJOECA

Thursday, June 13, 2002 2:54 AM

From what I saw, I'm certain it was a modern-day gun. Without spoiling, I can only say that the gun was fired and someone was shot. No plasma or light f/x -- just the standard gunshot sound effect and a gunshot wound (a close up, in fact). It's possible that there was a plasma (or whatever) effect yet to be added.

OTOH, if you look at the wallpaper (the one of them in cockpit), you see that Gina Torres has bullets clipped into her belt.

--- Joe

ZICSOFT

Thursday, June 13, 2002 3:50 PM

The guns fit in with the clothes and the horses. Presumably you can buy a plasma pistol, or at least an Uzi, in the core planets. But suppose you take a gun like that out to the frontier planets and it breaks? Where do you get parts? Is there a gunsmith with the necessary skills and tools in this star system?

We're so used to technology, we forget what a complicated and fragile thing it is. To have an industrial base, you have to have a lot of different things: natural resources, the ability to machine things to fine tolerances, people with lots of different and obscure skills.... If you're going to colonize a new world, you can't just instantly bring all the industrial technology with you.

So you don't bring technology that's hard to reproduce. If you're going to start a farm, you don't bring tractors and combines that you won't be able to replace or repair. You bring horses and donkeys that replace themselves, and machinery with parts you can fabricate yourself. When you need a gun, you probably can't afford and certainly can't fix a fancy off-planet weapon, so you get the local version of the Colt Peacemaker because that's what they know how to make locally.

TYMEN

Thursday, June 13, 2002 4:22 PM

Very true.

Also, since Joss is using the Civil War as
one of his influences, it should be noted
that one of the reasons the South lost the
war was that the North had a superior
manufactoring and industrial complex supporting them. Easier access to more weapons and supplies.
Hence the access to more primitive technology on the fringe than in the core worlds.

Tymen

PREV PAGE 1 2 3 4 5 6 NEXT PAGE