Capitalism and Firefly
POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 16:21
VIEWED: 10053
PAGE 6 of 11
Poor Ellis, what a shmoe.
Okay to get back on topic; so Nathan Fillion doesn't like Capitalism, eh?
Wait, I'm confused now...
Product of a bankrupt culture Chrisisall
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Catching up.
@SergeantX:
What I'm getting at is that when we enter a large corperate environment, we enter into limited or no options as the corps will buy out all the options.
@Tiger:
You said, "The problem isn't that there are greedy, amoral, jerks in big business that will take advantage of the little guy every chance they get"
Then you say, "it's that they can borrow the massive power of the government to do their bidding."
Isn't taking advantage of the the fact that they can "borrow the massive power of the government to do there bidding", being amoral?
You said, "Or do we SEPARATE THE TWO ENTIRELY and force business to get the money they want by pleasing their customers".
Are you so naive that you think that this will happen? Corps will always bleed there customers for as much as they can get. Corps are about making money, and nothing in there recent (and even not so recent, distant) history has suggested that they are willing to sacrific profits for customer satisfaction. Especially after they get an effective monopoly in a market.
@ChrisIsAll:
"""Capitalism is just a really good tool for that, and allows for the maximum # of 'kings'."""
I think that you are confusing what capitalism was to what capitalism has lead the US economy to be. To use your analogy, the current US economy is designed to keep the number of 'kings' static at best (actually many sectors are getting less and less 'kings') and crush the 'princes'/'lords'/etc.
@Citizen:
"""
Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.
"""
LOL, that's great!!! 
@ChrisIsAll:
"""
Like the dude in Die Hard said, some use a gun, some use a fountain pen, what's the difference?
I have two myself Chrisisall
"""
Really, I have an entire mug full 
----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
I think that you are confusing what capitalism was to what capitalism has lead the US economy to be. To use your analogy, the current US economy is designed to keep the number of 'kings' static at best (actually many sectors are getting less and less 'kings') and crush the 'princes'/'lords'/etc.
Yeah, and I'm one of the many peasants...
Pie in the sky aside, the corporations are gonna have to fall due to their own selfishness before any effective change can be made, they are in bed so deep w/the government that they are (defacto) our rulers. And speaking of bed, at this end, we peasants don't even get kissed before we get
ed by them.We've got to rise up! The only thing that counts in the end is power! Naked, merciless force!!!
Who's with me???
*pant, pant* Okay. I'm calmer now.
Maybe we could try a bartering system? Like; I give you a knuckle sandwich, and you give me the $3 comic?
Naw, it doesn't work for comics any better than it does for oil, CAN'T BUSH SEE THAT???!!!!
*pant, pant, pant*
I have to take a break from this...
BP 201/99 Chrisisall
P.S., you have a mug full of guns?
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Quote:No doubt about it. So if you take away the gov'ts massive power, the amoral business people are pretty much stuck trying to sell a $3 comic for $20, instead of using gov't force to corner a market for themselves.
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Isn't taking advantage of the the fact that they can "borrow the massive power of the government to do there bidding", being amoral?
Quote:I never said they would sacrifice profits, and of course they're out to make money - isn't that why you work too? A business will have to fill its customer's needs on some level at some point. How long would McDonalds last if they suddenly served up the cheaper "raw soy burger" with the ad line, "We're a big corporation, screw you!"
You said, "Or do we SEPARATE THE TWO ENTIRELY and force business to get the money they want by pleasing their customers".
Are you so naive that you think that this will happen? Corps will always bleed there customers for as much as they can get. Corps are about making money, and nothing in there recent (and even not so recent, distant) history has suggested that they are willing to sacrific profits for customer satisfaction.
Quote:I think you may be confused about what capitalism is in the first place. It can't be one thing "then" and another thing "now". Capitalism is the economic philosophy that markets should be free and unencumbered by gov't interference. That was the definition 150 years ago, and that's it today. To expand on what I said in my earlier post, what we have today is severely limited capitalism at best. 150 years ago we had nearly pure capitalism. The wealth and well being of Americans and the size and scope of corporate corruption are directly linked to the amount of gov't meddling in free markets. The more meddling we get (as in today), the former decreases and the latter increases.
I think that you are confusing what capitalism was to what capitalism has lead the US economy to be.
There's just no getting around the fact that the free-est markets ever (America in the early 19th cent - early 20th) ushered in the greatest boom of wealth, health, standard of living, and technology for the COMMON MAN all over the world.
How can that not be a good thing?
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tiger:
No doubt about it. So if you take away the gov'ts massive power, the amoral business people are pretty much stuck trying to sell a $3 comic for $20, instead of using gov't force to corner a market for themselves.
Um, what?
Quote:
Originally posted by Tiger:
I never said they would sacrifice profits, and of course they're out to make money - isn't that why you work too? A business will have to fill its customer's needs on some level at some point. How long would McDonalds last if they suddenly served up the cheaper "raw soy burger" with the ad line, "We're a big corporation, screw you!"
To better service customer, you have to increase cost and therefore sacrific profits.
And no, I don't work to earn money, I work to live. There is a massive difference between the two.
Also, these corps do satisfy the customers needs when selling the customer whatever product it is that they sell. The problem is, shitty product, poor warrantee, price, etc.
What these corps do is not to think of what would be the best price for the consumer, but what would maximize there profit, and
the customer. What is the maximum amount of crap that the customer will put up with without switching products (ie M$ is very well known for this type of tactic).Quote:
Originally posted by Tiger:
I think you may be confused about what capitalism is in the first place. It can't be one thing "then" and another thing "now". Capitalism is the economic philosophy that markets should be free and unencumbered by gov't interference. That was the definition 150 years ago, and that's it today. To expand on what I said in my earlier post, what we have today is severely limited capitalism at best. 150 years ago we had nearly pure capitalism. The wealth and well being of Americans and the size and scope of corporate corruption are directly linked to the amount of gov't meddling in free markets. The more meddling we get (as in today), the former decreases and the latter increases.
Fine, you've caught me in a misnomer. Is it so wrong to assume that even if I'm using a word improperly that the rest of my numerous posts will provide context so that people know what I'm talking about.
Clearly from context, I'm not really talking about the theory of pure capatilism, but the implementation in the US then and now. Does that explicit statment clear that up for you?
And how
'd up the system is now isn't due to government envolvment (though it plays a role at a certain level), but that it is the corps manipulating things through the government; it begins and ends with the corps involvment.It's that, the more meddling that happens (ie bribes) the more screwed up things get. Also, the US has a long history of not prosecuting such crimes. This is the real problem (Martha Stewart anyone? She got nailed yet all others involved got off with at most a slap on the wrist. Fair? Just? I think not.).
I find it fasinating that people in the US have such a fixation with government not interfering with there lives that everything that the gov is involved in is entirely there fault; everyone else involved, regardless of how deep, are pretty much ignored.
Quote:
Originally posted by Tiger:
There's just no getting around the fact that the free-est markets ever (America in the early 19th cent - early 20th) ushered in the greatest boom of wealth, health, standard of living, and technology for the COMMON MAN all over the world.
How can that not be a good thing?
Um, I actually stated that this was a good thing above. But, with the current state of things, with where this system has lead the US, it has turned into a very bad thing. That is indisputable. Walmart anyone? How many people don't have any sort of health insurance in the US right now? What's the unemployment? Where's the economy going? Oh yah, it's basically all in the crapper.
Also, I believe it was you that
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Quote:Why? I run my own business, my best friend runs one, so does my father. Between the three of us we’ve probably thought up a thousand ways to improve customer satisfaction without raising costs – that’s how you stay in business.
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
To better service customer, you have to increase cost and therefore sacrific profits.
Quote:So you’d be just as happy to receive your pay in clothes and food? “Money” isn’t a dirty word and you can want it and still be a good person.
And no, I don't work to earn money, I work to live. There is a massive difference between the two.
Quote:Every business (including big corporations) MUST consider what the best price for the customer is, or they won’t HAVE any customers. This is business 101. Do you think any business in a real capitalist economy would last a month if their game plane was to, as you say, “maximize profit and
What these corps do is not to think of what would be the best price for the consumer, but what would maximize there profit, and
the customer”?Quote:Nobody likes corps manipulating laws to their favor. But why just treat the symptom when you could treat the disease? Why make things harder for all business (regardless if they are immoral or not) with immense regulation and taxes, when you could take away the the power that corrupts in the first place? Reduce gov’t power and influence so no one can take advantage of it!
And how
Quote:The economy is doing fine compared to the last 10-15 years. It’s not doing great compared to the growth we saw for the first ¾ of the 20th century, but guess what else has changed in that time? More regulations, more taxes, more restrictions. More reasons for large corps to influence the gov’t.
How many people don't have any sort of health insurance in the US right now? What's the unemployment? Where's the economy going? Oh yah, it's basically all in the crapper.
Quote:I didn’t say they were the same, I said U.S. businesses face almost as much regulation and taxes (nowadays, that is).
Also, I believe it was you that stated above that the US system and the EU systems are basically the same. Well, I mentioned that to my German wife. Her response what, LOL, that's nonsense...
I’m going to take a wild guess and say you’re Canadian. I’ve heard the same arguments almost word for word from half a dozen other Canadians. Once, I asked a former Canadian friend of mine how it could be so consistent between people from different areas, of different ages, etc.. He said they teach the socialist ideal up there like it was handed down from God. Maybe you could confirm or deny. Unless, of course, I got it wrong and you’re not from Canada.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tiger:
Why? I run my own business, my best friend runs one, so does my father. Between the three of us we’ve probably thought up a thousand ways to improve customer satisfaction without raising costs – that’s how you stay in business.
I'm talking about big business. May I assume that you have a small business?
To get better customer satisfaction you would have to have more staff (increased cost) and/or update there knowledge from time to time (increased cost) and/or... Just about everything that can be done results in increased cost.
Basically, if you want happier customers, you increase your cost.
Quote:
Originally posted by Tiger:Quote:So you’d be just as happy to receive your pay in clothes and food? “Money” isn’t a dirty word and you can want it and still be a good person.
And no, I don't work to earn money, I work to live. There is a massive difference between the two.
Um, pardon me, but where are you getting this? I said no such thing. You are letting your assumptions get away on you.
Quote:
Originally posted by Tiger:
Do you think any business in a real capitalist economy would last a month if their game plane was to, as you say, “maximize profit and
Considering that is what's going on in the US right now (and for some time) in all the corps, I'd say yes.
Quote:
Originally posted by Tiger:
Nobody likes corps manipulating laws to their favor. But why just treat the symptom when you could treat the disease? Why make things harder for all business (regardless if they are immoral or not) with immense regulation and taxes, when you could take away the the power that corrupts in the first place? Reduce gov’t power and influence so no one can take advantage of it!
...
The economy is doing fine compared to the last 10-15 years. It’s not doing great compared to the growth we saw for the first ¾ of the 20th century, but guess what else has changed in that time? More regulations, more taxes, more restrictions. More reasons for large corps to influence the gov’t.
...
I didn’t say they were the same, I said U.S. businesses face almost as much regulation and taxes (nowadays, that is).
Actually, they pay far higher taxes and are far more regulated. Just because the people who make the regulations in the US are doing there jobs with utter incompetence (and/or being corrupt), doesn't mean that it can't be done propery, nor does it mean that the government has to be taken out of the picture (or out of the pic entirely).
Basically what you're suggesting to do, is like solving the problem with an atom bomb. The perceived problem is solved, but you still end up with chaos.
By the by, this article mentions that the US economy isn't actually doing that well. Read, learn. Extremes never work.
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,366944,00.html
Quote:
Originally posted by Tiger:
I’m going to take a wild guess and say you’re Canadian. I’ve heard the same arguments almost word for word from half a dozen other Canadians. Once, I asked a former Canadian friend of mine how it could be so consistent between people from different areas, of different ages, etc.. He said they teach the socialist ideal up there like it was handed down from God. Maybe you could confirm or deny. Unless, of course, I got it wrong and you’re not from Canada.
Considering I state in my online profile that I am Canadian, I'd say that you don't have to assume anything.
But no, they don't teach the socialist ideal like it is handed down by god. In fact, our economy is not socialist. It is a hybrid between capatilism and socialism. We've tried to get the benifit of both without the draw backs. So, who ever you've talked to - this so called Canadian - they don't know what they're talking about.
Basically what it comes down to is conflicting priorities. We want universial health care. We want people to be tak
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As best I can tell, you think that everything good comes from business, even international, corporate, monopolistic business, which (at the same time) you think needs to be divorced from government, which is itself a burden to small business but a ....
It's a little off-topic, but can you explain exactly what it is you believe?
Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.
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Quote:Capitalism works in the short run, and most of the wealthy will be dead before it all falls. Heroine addicts have a similar rationale, I suspect.
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
I'm also curious to know, why the US is still hanging onto this fantasy that capatilism actually works in the long run.
Dark Chrisisall
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Quote:True. I want to be free and you want to be taken care of. That's it in a (very small) nut shell. It's boiled down to this point in so many discussions like this with people born into different economic cultures, that I don't know why I keep trying to convince them (especially on message boards - in person these debates are so much more interesting).
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Basically what it comes down to is conflicting priorities.
Anyway, I know these online debates can turn ugly, and emotional intent isn't always easy to show, so good talking to you. I can honestly say I learned something (although I don't promise it's what you intended).
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