Capitalism and Firefly

POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 16:21
VIEWED: 10053
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SERGEANTX

Saturday, July 30, 2005 2:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
I see your point. But it just doesn't workout like that.
The companies that make money are the most ruthless, the ones that don't mind fighting dirty. Not the ones the offer the best, cheapest service.
The companies that make it are ones that don't mind screw people over (imho), that can channel the extra profits in to pulling the wool over peoples eyes, using pyschological tricks and advertising.
Recently I saw a program on TV that highlighted that food bought in small independent butchers/grocers etc was not just better for you (which people tend to know) but was cheaper than what you can buy in the supermarket. Why do people shop at supermarkets, because they're perceived to be cheaper and more convient (this one may be true), than the small independent shops.

A woman drove me to drink and I didn't even have the decency to thank her.
--W.C. Fields

You're right, it doesn't work like that, not always in any case. These days corruption and greed carry the day for a multitude of reasons, which we ought to discuss, but I fail to see anything inherent in the notion of the free market that makes this happen.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

CHRISISALL

Saturday, July 30, 2005 2:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Recently I saw a program on TV that highlighted that food bought in small independent butchers/grocers etc was not just better for you (which people tend to know) but was cheaper than what you can buy in the supermarket.

People doing the job always know best, not the Allianc...I mean, the corporations. They just know the best way to screw things up whilst maintaining their bottom line...THIS quarter.
Short sightedness that results in stupidity and corruption (not to mention conspiracies!!)

Not for s*#&in' on the little guy Chrisisall

CITIZEN

Saturday, July 30, 2005 2:22 AM

Theres nothing wrong with the concept of the free market.
Theres nothing wrong with the concept of communism. Before I'm labeled as this or that let me explain:
Communism's guiding principle is the idea of everyone being the same, equal, everyone helping each other out.
Capitalism, at its best, is advisarial, trying to succeed at the detrement of your competion.
Problem is neither of them workout how their supposed to.

A woman drove me to drink and I didn't even have the decency to thank her.
--W.C. Fields

SERGEANTX

Saturday, July 30, 2005 2:39 AM

Hmmm.. I think the issue is not really one of how capitalism (or communism or whatever) works or doesn't work. I'm just saying that the injustices we see in the name of 'capitalism' are just people looking to screw other people over. This is going to happen in any system. But, excepting the basic unfairness of corporate law, capitalism at least tries to seperate this from the forceful rule of government. It's why I like it better than any other economic system I've heard of.

People in a free market system can turn away from the despicable business practices you mentioned. They can stop shopping at Wal-Mart, they can refuse to grant unfair tax favors to large companies, they can stop letting themselves be brainwashed by unscrupulous marketing. The fact that they refuse to do so is pretty depressing, but the option is there waiting for us to seize it.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

SIGMANUNKI

Saturday, July 30, 2005 2:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:

the ethics of capitalism

Capitalism... Ethics... What?

Anyone see the documentary "The Corporation"?

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

CITIZEN

Saturday, July 30, 2005 2:53 AM

Nope, was it something on American TV? I'm British.

SergeantX:
Freedom of choice is meaningless with out the information/knowledge to use it.

A woman drove me to drink and I didn't even have the decency to thank her.
--W.C. Fields

SIGMANUNKI

Saturday, July 30, 2005 2:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:

People in a free market system can turn away from the despicable business practices you mentioned. They can stop shopping at Wal-Mart, they can refuse to grant unfair tax favors to large companies, they can stop letting themselves be brainwashed by unscrupulous marketing. The fact that they refuse to do so is pretty depressing, but the option is there waiting for us to seize it.

I think your fallacy here is that you are assuming that the masses are basically intellegent. And that they are aware of what's going on.

Capatilism has the some basic flaws in common with communism. They both assume that people are basically intellegent, are informed, are activites, will do something when something isn't fair, etc This is, in reality, non-sense. People just don't care enough.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

CHRISISALL

Saturday, July 30, 2005 3:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Capatilism has the some basic flaws in common with communism. They both assume that people are basically intellegent, are informed, are activites, will do something when something isn't fair, etc This is, in reality, non-sense. People just don't care enough.

So, basically you're saying Nathan did the right thing, and didn't over-react, or anything, right?
I would agree.

Back on track Chrisisall

SERGEANTX

Saturday, July 30, 2005 3:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
I think your fallacy here is that you are assuming that the masses are basically intellegent. And that they are aware of what's going on.

It's tempting to agree. I've made similar statements myself. But I think it's more a matter of laziness. Most people are reasonably intelligent but tend to avoid the 'work' of thinking for themselves if they can get away with it. I just don't see how making it easier for them to get away with it helps the problem.

Now, my last statement makes some (perhaps unwarranted) assumptions about what you might be suggesting as an alternative to a free market, but regardless, I'd rather err on the side of optimism when it comes to human intelligence. It seems that treating them as naive children in need of constant supervision will only encourage them to behave as naive children.

As I alluded to earlier, I really think the problems we're seeing aren't inherent in free economic exchange, but have more to do with the way people are conditioned from birth to respond to marketing and groupthink. The basic model of our education system is a culprit, in my opinion, as well as the non-stop assault of pop media.

Out of interest, are you suggesting any viable alternatives?

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

TIGER

Saturday, July 30, 2005 7:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Theres nothing wrong with the concept of the free market.
Theres nothing wrong with the concept of communism. Before I'm labeled as this or that let me explain:
Communism's guiding principle is the idea of everyone being the same, equal, everyone helping each other out.
Capitalism, at its best, is advisarial, trying to succeed at the detrement of your competion.
Problem is neither of them workout how their supposed to.

The guiding priciple behind communism is not that people will help each other, it is that people will work willingly for everyone but themselves. That individuals will never desire rewards that match their efforts, but will settle for getting what everyone else gets regardless of their own sacrifice, ideas, pain and work. In reality this is only possible in insects, therefore it is neccessary to force people to conform to the communist model. Every communist government that has ever existed on earth either failed quickly or degenerated almost immediately into a dictatorship. Stalin, Castro, Mao, Kim Il-sung. That is the nature of communism.

The guiding principle behind capitalism is not to succeed to the detrement of your competition, it is that you are free to succeed (or fail) based on your own merits without interference from the government. This is the natural state of a human being - to do his best to provide for himself. The United States in the 19th and early 20th century (the only truly capitilast time/place in history) spearheaded the largest explosion of wealth for common people ever. That is the nature of capitalism.

So, if I have a choice between a jerk who wants to charge too much for a comic book that I can refuse to buy, and a Stalin or Il-Sung, I'll take the jerk.

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