Angel -- "The Jasmine Arc: Atheism for Dummies"
POSTED BY: Novagrass
UPDATED: Friday, February 20, 2004 21:39
VIEWED: 20625
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Hehe, well whatever terminology you use, let's just leave it at Joss doesn't believe in God, atheists don't belive in God, and The Jasmine Arc is a metaphorical journey through becoming an atheist.
i can live with that. like Paul Bettany calls himself a "misguided adolescent," which is English for actor. it's all in the interpretation....or JW is an atheist who writes about agnostics? what's that do for ya?
"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal
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The current Atlantic has an article in the beginning section coins a new word I have become fond of: Apatheist. An apatheist is a person who doesn't care about religion all that much one way or another. It might include believers as well as non-believers. Fun idea -- I knew there was a word out there for my religious preference.
But the current story arc on Angel and on Buffy is by no means apatheistic.
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"I'm a very hard-line angry atheist" Whedon Says "Yet I'm fascinated by the concept of devotion..."
http://www.fireflyfans.net/news.asp?newsid=267
Well, I stand corrected. it's interesting that a "hardline" atheist would be so fasinated by faith , devotion ,god,personal morals, etc, and what it means.
Keep Flying!
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The current Atlantic has an article in the beginning section coins a new word I have become fond of: Apatheist. An apatheist is a person who doesn't care about religion all that much one way or another. It might include believers as well as non-believers. Fun idea -- I knew there was a word out there for my religious preference.
HEY! that is a fun idea. i'm a believer (not a trace...of doubt in my mind...) but i've had all manner of objections with religion in general because of all the gorramn rules and prejudices that seem to follow on occasion. like how "true" Christians don't believe you believe unless you're wearing a cross (not a bad thing, mind). i wear a yin-yang pendant, which some uninformed types have taken as evil-paganistic, totally ignoring the idea of balance between light and darkness. plus let me just say it fits the Gemini persona SO well.
this is the kind of broad-scope thinking that goes on when your mother was raised by parents of two protestant religions, baptized by a third and confirmed/married into a fourth...the child becomes an apatheist
"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal
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I'm confused about your differentiation between loss of faith and the breaking of it.
here's my thinking...
lost faith is when someone basically grows away from it. they're aware of it, but don't actively practice it. they'll got to church on holidays, but that's it. it can also be those dark despair times when things are so bad, they can't see the light and often times stop looking altogether.
broken faith is when someone has good reason to be so pissed off at God they deliberately choose to step away from the God path onto a life path of their own. that's not to say they'll automatically end up in the special hell or anything. it's a conscious decision, same as someone who deliberately turns back onto the God path again.
as you say, though, what's lost can be found, and what's broken can be repaired, but here's the twist - humans were given the ultimate gift of free will. what we do with it is strictly up to us.
again, this is simply my point of view. long winters in Minnesota tend to cause all manner of contemplation.
"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal
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Originally posted by Channain:Quote:
I'm confused about your differentiation between loss of faith and the breaking of it.
here's my thinking...
lost faith is when someone basically grows away from it. they're aware of it, but don't actively practice it. they'll got to church on holidays, but that's it. it can also be those dark despair times when things are so bad, they can't see the light and often times stop looking altogether.
broken faith is when someone has good reason to be so pissed off at God they deliberately choose to step away from the God path onto a life path of their own. that's not to say they'll automatically end up in the special hell or anything. it's a conscious decision, same as someone who deliberately turns back onto the God path again.
as you say, though, what's lost can be found, and what's broken can be repaired, but here's the twist - humans were given the ultimate gift of free will. what we do with it is strictly up to us.
again, this is simply my point of view. long winters in Minnesota tend to cause all manner of contemplation.
"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal
Ahh, I see where you're coming from now.
And the confusion endeth.
--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--
"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon
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Originally posted by BRTick:
Well, I stand corrected. it's interesting that a "hardline" atheist would be so fasinated by faith , devotion ,god,personal morals, etc, and what it means.
Keep Flying!
In my experience, a lot of atheists are interested in faith and related ideas. Some of them become obsessed... a lot of anthropologists dedicate their lives to studying religion despite (or maybe because of) being atheists. Maybe they're trying to discover a new thought, a way to allow them to believe again, because it's very terrifying to feel so alone in the universe.
And I'd watch what you'd say about personal morals. You probably don't mean it the way I'm interpreting it, but religion is not the source of morality. It's sad to believe that the only thing keeping human morality in check is their dedication to a potentially nonexistant ideal. It's much more rational (not to mention comforting) to believe that morality is inherant in human nature (some more than others). Keep in mind that the most immoral attrocities in human existance (the Crusades, Jihhad, the Holocaust, etc...) have stemmed from religious teachings. To say that religion is the source of morality is to ignore the very history of religion at the expense of a belief in the inherent good of humanity.
Again, you probably didn't mean it the way I interpreted it... but I'm in a preachy mood today.
--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--
"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon
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And I'd watch what you'd say about personal morals.
Well,what I meant(kinda), How many times have you heard someone say something is right or wrong because the bible (or whatever religious tome may apply) or their religious leaders say it is right or wrong? Those that carried out the Crusades or Jihad or whatever believe that they are acting in a moral way, that what they are or were doing is right. It would be nice to believe that morality is inherent, and maybe it is, but people can carry out acts other would see as immoral and still believe what they are doing isn’t. When it comes to morals in really comes down to a persons own sense of what is right and wrong, and In the end only that individual can be held accountable for their own actions.
Take Firefly, for instance, the crew carries out acts that most see as immoral (stealing killing, etc.) and yet most of the time, they seem to be doing what they see as right and good to survive.
Keep Flying!
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Originally posted by BRTick:
Take Firefly, for instance, the crew carries out acts that most see as immoral (stealing killing, etc.) and yet most of the time, they seem to be doing what they see as right and good to survive.
Keep Flying!
mor·al
*adj. Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character: moral scrutiny; a moral quandary.
*Teaching or exhibiting goodness or correctness of character and behavior: a moral lesson.
*Arising from conscience or the sense of right and wrong: a moral obligation.
Nowhere in the definition of morals does it stipulate a religious conviction. I admit that morals are certainly plyable. They aren't definate "this is right and this is wrong" scenarios. Different religions preach different morals... but every religion does preach morality. Take Zen Buddhists, for instance. Zen Buddhism is fundamentally an atheistic religion... there is no belief in a higher power. Are you saying that because they don't conform to Judeo-Christian concepts of god that they are any less moral than you? If you, you're more ignorant that I thought.
What you're saying is that religion shapes us morally. That may be true, only because religion is the basically the only place where most people learn morality (whether it be from family religious convictions, church, or whatever). But who shaped the moral convictions preached by religion? That's right, humans like you and I. Religion is a human-created concept, therefore humans put their ideas of morality and structure into the teachings. You are saying religion shapes humanity, but in reality, humanity is what shaped religion. Your logic that morals are not inherent in humanity is flawed at best. After all where did they come from in the first place?
I am an atheist. My father is an atheist. My uncle, and my sister and on and on and on... all atheists. Does that mean we have looser moral convictions? Certainly not. In fact, if I had to choose the most moral person I know, it would be my sister. Most atheists are moral for morality's sake. Most aren't moral because they fear eternal damnation; Most aren't scared into being moral. Most know the difference between right and wrong as well as the staunchest Christian follower, if not more so. (That is not to say that all atheists are moral, as there certainly are immoral atheists. Just as there are immoral Christians and Jews and Muslims and Buddhists and Hindis)
I am still confused as to your ignorance at not allowing for the possibility of inherent human morality. Atheists are no more or less moral than any religious participant. It's as simple as that. The end.
--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--
"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon
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I am still confused as to your ignorance at not allowing for the possibility of inherent human morality.
I’m, not disallowing for the possibility of inherent morality, we all want to do what is right and avoid what is wrong. But, I think most of our ideas of exactly what is right and wrong are learned, from our parents, society, and, our religion or philosophy or whatever.
Keep Flying!
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