American Hiroshima: yes to if, no to when
POSTED BY: HKCavalier
UPDATED: Friday, July 25, 2025 19:29
VIEWED: 11080
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I find the current state of discourse in this country so toxic, it impedes simple logical thought. For instance, it occures to me that there are plenty of countries that are more culturally liberal than our own. Why don't the Islamic fundies go after Holland if cultural decadence and "freedom" are their beef? Why don't the terrorists hate their freedom too?
'Cause Holland ain't pointing a gun at anyone.
With our military superiority, we effectively hold the entire world hostage to our good will. Is that too difficult to understand? It's like the old good cop/bad cop ploy. The bare fact of our military power which we have demonstrated regularly around the world since Hiroshima, is the "bad cop" that stands in the back of the room at the ready, observing while we "spread liberty and justice."
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
I find the current state of discourse in this country so toxic, it impedes simple logical thought. For instance, it occures to me that there are plenty of countries that are more culturally liberal than our own. Why don't the Islamic fundies go after Holland if cultural decadence and "freedom" are their beef? Why don't the terrorists hate their freedom too?
'Cause Holland ain't pointing a gun at anyone.
With our military superiority, we effectively hold the entire world hostage to our good will. Is that too difficult to understand? It's like the old good cop/bad cop ploy. The bare fact of our military power which we have demonstrated regularly around the world since Hiroshima, is the "bad cop" that stands in the back of the room at the ready, observing while we "spread liberty and justice."
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
I think you are mistaken HKCavalier.
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6872461
A dutch filmmaker was slain because he filmed a documentary that was critical of Islamic culture. The terrorists (I'd like to use a different word since "terrorist" is become dissolute from overuse, but it really is the best word here.) threatened Jihad against politicians and civillians.
You see it is a war of ideas and the Islamic militants are inflexible in their beliefs, just like the Nazis and their Axis alliance during World War 2. We dropped many bombs on Germany, Italy and Japan during WW2. If we could have invented a bomb that would only kill Nazis, or Islamic militants that would have been or would be great, but citizens must suffer because they don't stop these madmen. The critical difference is that now the war is being brought home by people rather than sovereign governments. Should the nations allowing their citizens to wage war be held accountable for the actions of a few people?
There is another problem, resources. The region generating this problem, fundamental terrorism, also generates a lot of oil. Our economy runs on oil. Doing anything that may cut off the flow of oil makes politicians nervous. Let the economy hit a brick wall, such as it would if the oil were shut off, and those politicians won't get voted back into office.
Don't think for an instant I would hesitate to use the most awesome weapon in our arsenal if it would resolve the problem. If it took the streets of Mecca and Medina running red with the blood of innocent civillians I would do it and sleep soundly that night having done it. Don't think I wouldn't license the immediate destruction of every man, woman and child in these terrorist's families if it would stop the violence and bloodshed, but it won't.
This is a war of ideas. Islamic fundamentalists have a mad on because their culture doesn't have as much to offer young people. Western culture has flashy advertisments, enticements of sex, liberation, freedom to pursue your own way of life. Their culture has none of that. The American idea that anyone can rise to highest levels of power is an incredible lure. Their culture promises hard work and exclusion unless you are born to the right family. The Islamic region was far in advance of the west for hundreds of years. Post Crusade they fell far, far behind and never caught up. What happened? The rise of fundamentalism. The cause? The crusades.
So you can see how deeply set the roots of the problem are.
The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.
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Ach, the whole Van Gogh thing. I forgot about that for the moment, but it wasn't exactly a murder in the name of the culture war, now was it? It was to silence a journalist who'd made an incriminating documentary. Not the same thing at all. We must be able to make the simplest distinctions, Hardware.
Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
Don't think for an instant I would hesitate to use the most awesome weapon in our arsenal if it would resolve the problem. If it took the streets of Mecca and Medina running red with the blood of innocent civillians I would do it and sleep soundly that night having done it. Don't think I wouldn't license the immediate destruction of every man, woman and child in these terrorist's families if it would stop the violence and bloodshed, but it won't.
Good God. Where in God's name does this disgusting rhetoric come from? What are you trying to prove, talking like this? That you're "tough?" I thought I'd heard the first and last of this genocidal posturing from Hero, but now you join in the chorus? What is your problem?
You don't perceive that your bloodthirsty ravings are a total non sequitur? It's like saying, "And I'd strangle you in your sleep if I thought it would cure cancer, but it won't." It only exposes your mental preoccupations without addressing the real futility of violence in this case.
Chrisisall, I'm still waiting on the funny.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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I believe you misunderstand me. I was trying to underline the futility of violence. Both sides have proven they are capable of whatever level of violent escalation the other side climbs to. As things are now this is a never ending circle of violence. It will take something bigger than either side to break the circle.
But I believe you are wrong about the Van Gogh thing. They specifically targetted him for his documentary, but they promised Jihad against politicians and anyone who stands in their way. As you pointed out Holland isn't pointing a gun at anybody. They sought him out merely because he had a different viewpoint than they did. Sort of takes away the rational argument that terrorism happens because the terrorists are downtrodden and fearful of the military of the targetted countries, doesn't it?
The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.
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Quote:I'm waiting for Hero to say, in his own words, who the "guilty" are and the collateral damage he's willing to accept.
No. I'm advocating the catching, killing, incarcerating or otherwise neutralizing thousands of people. The ones I want are not innocent.
Thats the the biggest disagreement we seem to have. You seem to think these people are innocent. They are terrorists and their victims are not just the dead and injured innocents in London, New York, Bagdad, and Isreal, its their own people who.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
I believe you misunderstand me. I was trying to underline the futility of violence. Both sides have proven they are capable of whatever level of violent escalation the other side climbs to. As things are now this is a never ending circle of violence. It will take something bigger than either side to break the circle.
Okay then, Hardware. Knowing your sensible contributions to this board in the past, I was very surprised by what I was reading from you yesterday. I still think that was a pretty grizzly strawman you built for your argument, but I'm glad to hear I misunderstood you. I'm glad to hear you weren't seriously contemplating genocide.
Quote:
But I believe you are wrong about the Van Gogh thing. They specifically targetted him for his documentary, but they promised Jihad against politicians and anyone who stands in their way. As you pointed out Holland isn't pointing a gun at anybody. They sought him out merely because he had a different viewpoint than they did. Sort of takes away the rational argument that terrorism happens because the terrorists are downtrodden and fearful of the military of the targetted countries, doesn't it?
Not really, and I hope you don't think I'm splitting hairs or making a nice distinction, but violence alway proceeds from distortion and false logic. If your main goal is to hurt someone and make them afraid of you, you'll say and do any damn thing that gets the job done. And Hardware, this they you refer to again and again--you have no idea who they are. Not really. Or how many they are, or if they have any connection beyond their rhetoric with any of the other "they's" who commit terrorism.
If we leap from assumption to assumption in a paranoid trance of vengence we will never end terrorism until it ends us.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Quote:
Originally posted by InevitableBetrayal:
See, here's where I make what I hope will be my final point of the evening (since I have class in 45 minutes): deep down, I'm afraid that nothing will work. Deep down I really feel that diplomacy will merely embolden terrorists and military action enrage them. The only path I see is to do everything they want and then seal the borders and cut off all contact with the world (which would tickle them pink, no doubt). Seriously, we're up against an enemy that's more committed winning than we are. Yikes.
InevitableB, I hope you're still reading the thread, because I thought we had a pretty worthwhile discussion going until Mr. Tar Baby came and hijacked it (Signy, I hope you won't be too disappointed if he doesn't answer your question--I know I won't).
IB, I really appreciate your candor with this last post. I think it's of the utmost importance that we be able to talk about our hopelessness these days, because there is an awful lot of it out there. It's why I started this thread in the first place.
I think a lot of people making policy today share your hopelessness and that's why they're making such horrible decissions. If nothing we do can change the situation for the better, then all that's left to us is to strike an heroic pose on deck as the ship sinks (and the Bush administration is very, very good at posing heroically while everything falls down about their ears).
We could hear that hopelessness throughout the last election, every time John Kerry opened his mouth. He had no plan to "win the peace" 'cause he didn't believe it was possible. Bush certainly doesn't believe it's possible. What are we gonna do, if our leaders have no workable realistic vision for the future?
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
Don't think for an instant I would hesitate to use the most awesome weapon in our arsenal if it would resolve the problem.
Glory be to the Bomb and to the Holy fallout, which made Heaven out of Earth.
I reveal my inmost self Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
this dialogue of right and wrong has no place until the war is won.
I.e., it has no place.
Hero, I find you guilty of using your impressive intelect to subvert your humanity. Your lack of humility astounds this court. Your inability to empathize with your fellow man not endowed by their creator with your geographical location on this world seems to know no limits.
Your conscience is hereby ordered to gnaw away at your psychological superiority defence and it's ancillary fear-reaction subroutines until you retreat from the dark side, or go mad, whichever comes first.
This court is adjourned.
The honourable Judge Topher Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:Quote:
Originally posted by InevitableBetrayal:
See, here's where I make what I hope will be my final point of the evening (since I have class in 45 minutes): deep down, I'm afraid that nothing will work. Deep down I really feel that diplomacy will merely embolden terrorists and military action enrage them. The only path I see is to do everything they want and then seal the borders and cut off all contact with the world (which would tickle them pink, no doubt). Seriously, we're up against an enemy that's more committed winning than we are. Yikes.
InevitableB, I hope you're still reading the hread, because I thought we had a pretty worthwhile discussion going until Mr. Tar Baby came and hijacked it (Signy, I hope you won't be too disappointed if he doesn't answer your question--I know I won't).
IB, I really appreciate your candor with this last post. I think it's of the utmost importance that we be able to talk about our hopelessness these days, because there is an awful lot of it out there. It's why I started this thread in the first place.
I think a lot of people making policy today share your hopelessness and that's why they're making such horrible decissions. If nothing we do can change the situation for the better, then all that's left to us is to strike an heroic pose on deck as the ship sinks (and the Bush administration is very, very good at posing heroically while everything falls down about their ears).
We could hear that hopelessness throughout the last election, every time John Kerry opened his mouth. He had no plan to "win the peace" 'cause he didn't believe it was possible. Bush certainly doesn't believe it's possible. What are we gonna do, if our leaders have no workable realistic vision for the future?
Yeah, that was not the world's easiest post. Used to be hard-core conservative, pro-Bush, pro-military-intervention, etc. But instead of just flopping to the other side, I seem to have lost all hope in the entire process. Democrats: overly simplistic worldview. Republicans: same deal. Republicans: foreign policy based on said worldview + political considerations. Dems: same deal. I don't even have hope that there is such a thing as "moderate" position. Interesting thing about people: we think in valorize binary pairs (e.g. good/bad, up/down, right/wrong), so I don't even see a way clear to the "middle ground". I'm just becoming increasingly frustrated by the screeching of the politicians and mooing of the masses. I spent months and months in combat over there, and I can't even bring myself to talk to people about because they've already got their minds made up. If the situation is cracked, what's to be done? If nothing we do will work, what do we do?
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I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.
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