American Hiroshima: yes to if, no to when

POSTED BY: HKCavalier
UPDATED: Friday, July 25, 2025 19:29
VIEWED: 11080
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SERGEANTX

Friday, July 22, 2005 7:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Ah, the 'its all our fault' line of thought. I say there's too much understanding from the Democrats and not enough ass kicking.

Where's the value in characterizing the problem in all or nothing terms? By writing off attempts to understand the underlying cause of terrorism as 'blame America first' thinking, you're neglecting an important, possibly the most important, ingredient to protecting ourselves from terrorism.

Quote:
You want us to step back and solve the underlying problems. Problems that are the legacy of cold war, colonialism, corruption of international institutions and thousands of years of religeous conflict. And while your studying that, they are murdering innocent men, women, and children on the streets of our friends, allies, and brothers in arms and dreaming of the day they can do the same thing on every streetcorner in every town of our own country.

Which is exactly why we need to quit wasting lives and money on a failed strategy and get to down to what's really going on. The reason Islamic terrorism started in the first place was our unwelcome military presence in the region. Increasing that military presence is precisely the way to deepen the motivation for terrorists.

Quote:
The only underlying issue now that needs solved is this: we are at war. War means fighting. Fighting means killing. And victory means killing them until they are all dead or they give up.

Can you honestly say this will ever happen?

As long as they believe that we intend to occupy their land indefinitely, I don't see them giving up. We need to make our intentions perfectly clear before we can expect the terrorists, or more importantly the general Muslim population, to cooperate.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

HERO

Friday, July 22, 2005 8:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:

So, do you not agree that preventing a nuclear attack on US soil is worth diplomatic effort?

Only if it works. If not then its really just a bunch of talk.

We had lots of diplomacy going right right up to the attack on Pearl Harbor. Lots of diplomacy keeping Hitler out of Poland. Didn't work out so well.

But diplomacy also kept the peace with the Soviets. Diplomacy and the absolute faith our enemies had in our ability to end their collective existence.

Diplomacy works best in the presense of armed force and steely resolve. Thats why Reagan, not Carter or Teddy Kennedy, won the cold war. Thats why Bush, not Kerry or anyone named Clinton, will win this one.

H

HKCAVALIER

Friday, July 22, 2005 8:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
we could focus solving the problems in the first place that might lead to a situation where people would end up wanting to kick *ss.

Ah, the 'its all our fault' line of thought. I say there's too much understanding from the Democrats and not enough ass kicking. Thats why they keep getting their collective asses kicked in national elections.

They've lost nearly every race since 1994, including control of the House, Senate, Presidency, the majority of State legislatures and Governorships.

One good example is Howard Dean who urges us not to condem Osama Bin Laddin without a trial but demands we jail Karl Rove without one.

You want us to step back and solve the underlying problems. Problems that are the legacy of cold war, colonialism, corruption of international institutions and thousands of years of religeous conflict. And while your studying that, they are murdering innocent men, women, and children on the streets of our friends, allies, and brothers in arms and dreaming of the day they can do the same thing on every streetcorner in every town of our own country.

The only underlying issue now that needs solved is this: we are at war. War means fighting. Fighting means killing. And victory means killing them until they are all dead or they give up. We can address their other concerns at the peace table and in the history books when its over, but we should be dictating the terms: liberty, democracy, opportunity to our former enemies (just like we did for Germany and Japan). Because their terms: fear, death, intollerance, dispair; wont don't seem as desirable.

H

Eloquent summation speech, councilor. Emotional appeal, logical fallacy, bandwagoning, slander (I'm sure I've missed a couple) all delivered with that patented John Wayne gravitas of yours. "War means fighting. Fighting means killing. And victory means killing them until they are all dead or they give up." Unfortunately, it shows little if any sensitivity to the reality before us. I'm afraid that with you, the mythic pageantry may run too deep.

If you had read the thread and sought to join the discussion instead of lobbing in your elegant accumulato, you'd have noticed that the victory of which you speak has been thoroughly debated and acknowledged as a fantasy that simply does not fit the actual situation. Terrorism is not an army you can defeat in battle. "Giving up" requires an intact survival instinct--you know, having something to lose. The spurious "them" to whom you refer now apparently includes British citizens. The world is growing too small for this childish "us and them" dualism to continue.

Rue's remarks speak to me not of "it's all our fault," but of our responsibility as citizens of the world. Unlike the terrorists, we can do something other than kill. We need not polarize the entire Islamic world against us.

Quote:
"And while your studying that, they are murdering innocent men, women, and children on the streets of our friends, allies, and brothers in arms and dreaming of the day they can do the same thing on every streetcorner in every town of our own country."

Yes, Hero, they dream. How do you kill a dream? From where I sit, your facile, cowboys-and-indians, old-school jingoism can only fuel and sustain that dream.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

HERO

Friday, July 22, 2005 8:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
By writing off attempts to understand the underlying cause of terrorism as 'blame America first' thinking, you're neglecting an important, possibly the most important, ingredient to protecting ourselves from terrorism.

There is historical precedent for my perspective. Not a lot of Indian (American) attacks these days. Was it because we understood them and addressed their concerns? No. Its because we defeated them and removed their ability and will to engage in armed conflict.

Not saying what we did was right or wrong. But it was damned effective.

Terrorists are engaged in a military conflict with the United States and its allies. The most imortant ingediant in protecting ourselves from them is to kill them or destroy their will. We can discuss right and wrong later, when the threat is eliminated and we can engage in the cool reflection of enlightened history.

Quote:

Which is exactly why we need to quit wasting lives and money on a failed strategy and get to down to what's really going on. The reason Islamic terrorism started in the first place was our unwelcome military presence in the region. Increasing that military presence is precisely the way to deepen the motivation for terrorists.

Thats crap, er...I mean I respectfully disagree. Our war strategy has resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of terrorists and their allies, its spread liberty and justice to two nations, one a terrorist stronghold, the other a brutal dictatorship and the ripples have swept nations like Lebanon, Eqypt, Saudi Arabia, Libya, and so on further down the path towards reform, not to mention other countries like the Ukraine who follow the example of brave Iraqis, Afganis, and Lebanese who brave terror and tragedy to stand for freedom and democracy.

And the Islamafascist's issue is not the intrusion of our military in their region, but rather the intrusion of our culture on their power. That and a fundamental disagreement with our belief that Jews have a right to live. Those are the real issues in this war.

Quote:

Can you honestly say this will ever happen?

Its happened before. History is a fine teacher about whats possible given the will and circumstance to make it happen.

Quote:

As long as they believe that we intend to occupy their land indefinitely, I don't see them giving up. We need to make our intentions perfectly clear before we can expect the terrorists, or more importantly the general Muslim population, to cooperate.

Well there is your mistake. Cooperation with the terrorists. Sad really. You were doing quite well.

Cooperation. Thats like everybody getting together to raise a barn. When you include a terrorist, your just asking for your barn to be blown up. Best to not invite them and if you see them hangin round, show them the cooperative end of a shotgun.

H

HKCAVALIER

Friday, July 22, 2005 9:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
There is historical precedent for my perspective. Not a lot of Indian (American) attacks these days. Was it because we understood them and addressed their concerns? No. Its because we defeated them and removed their ability and will to engage in armed conflict.

Not saying what we did was right or wrong. But it was damned effective.

Sweet Jesus, Hero! Sometimes I think there must be some snarky undergraduate wag laughing up his sleave at how serious we all take his little exercise in devil's advocacy named Hero.

But you're serious. "Not saying what we did was right or wrong." There's moral courage for ya! Yeah, and the German government believed there was a Jewish conspiracy to control the banks of Europe and now there aren't any Jews in Europe. Not saying what they did was right or wrong. But the final solution was damned effective.

Yes, Hero. Genocide is effective. History proves it.

Chrisisall, please say something funny.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

SIGNYM

Friday, July 22, 2005 9:45 PM

Hero- are you advocating the murder of thousands, if not millions, of innocent people? A YES or NO will do.

HERO

Friday, July 22, 2005 10:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Hero- are you advocating the murder of thousands, if not millions, of innocent people? A YES or NO will do.

No. I'm advocating the catching, killing, incarcerating or otherwise neutralizing thousands of people. The ones I want are not innocent.

Thats the the biggest disagreement we seem to have. You seem to think these people are innocent. They are terrorists and their victims are not just the dead and injured innocents in London, New York, Bagdad, and Isreal, its their own people who.

It is you who are seeking to seek an accomidation with those who murder innocents. And this dialogue of right and wrong has no place until the war is won.

H

SIGNYM

Friday, July 22, 2005 10:50 PM

So, to clarify- the ones you want are guilty of.... ? Committing terrorist acts? Knowingly supporting or harboring terrorists? Where do you draw the line between innocent a guilty? Also- how much "collateral damage" are you willing to accept?

SERGEANTX

Friday, July 22, 2005 10:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
...And this dialogue of right and wrong has no place until the war is won.

If we lose the will to engage in moral conduct as a nation, I don't give a damn whether we win or not.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

RUE

Saturday, July 23, 2005 3:49 AM

"Hero"

Quote:
Our war strategy has ... spread liberty and justice to two nations, one a terrorist stronghold, the other a brutal dictatorship and the ripples have swept nations like Lebanon, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Libya, and so on further down the path towards reform, not to mention other countries like the Ukraine who follow the example of brave Iraqis, Afghanis, and Lebanese who brave terror and tragedy to stand for freedom and democracy.

Somehow by reading this I suspect you want so much more than to go after terrorists (all guilty on your say-so of course) and leave the innocents, their cultures, governments and land alone.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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