Video US helicopter guns down farmers

POSTED BY: GinoBiffaroni
UPDATED: Sunday, July 24, 2005 05:16
VIEWED: 9855
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SIGNYM

Thursday, July 14, 2005 11:16 PM

My reply was to Barnstormer. I wasn't trying to turn your non-reply into an issue, I was using it merely as an example of why NOT to turn a non-reply into an issue!

EDITED TO ADD: But this is the second time that I was misunderestimated! Maybe I should have been more careful with my posts and clarified what I was trying to do.

CHRISISALL

Thursday, July 14, 2005 11:32 PM

Hey, Inevitable, take a break maybe, but don't dissappear. I don't come to the RWE to change people's minds (well, not mostly), I come here to challenge my existing beliefs, or learn something from a different point of view.
At worst, it can be boring repetitive verbal sparring. But at best it can make us consider something we hadn't before.
My two cents.

Ain't no Herbert Chrisisall

GINOBIFFARONI

Friday, July 15, 2005 4:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:
We haven't heard from the original poster since the full video was linked to. I'd be interested to hear what he thinks about this in its proper context and whether he would have still posted this topic (complete with headline) if he had seen that.

Sorry about the lateness of my reply, I've been camping up in the mountains the last few days.

And I am also sorry, I can't seem to get your link to work. From what has been posted here I believe that the rest of the video shows the three people moving weapons about etc.

I likely would have posted it anyway, but not with the same headline. I have always said ( well posted ) that the full story wasn't here, but I would still question the ROE of this mission. If a checkpoint was nearby as someone said, could they have not moved a section forward to investigate supported by this gunship? As a former Infantry section commander ( in another army mind you ) this was the sort of thing we trained for.

My base point, being that with the US advantage in military technology, does it make the playing field so uneven it results in " terrorism " types of attacks...

And if that statement holds any truth does the morality of ROE and use of such superior firepower hold the same justifications or lack there of. For example, before I went on vacation there was something in the news about a village in Afganistan being bombed after it was suspected of harboring militants ( not an exact quote ) How do you feel about that ? The " suspected " part bothers me. If a platoon of troops moving into the village takes fire and airsupport is required to back them up, fine. But their was no mention of anything like this ?

I'll try to find a link tommorow

When my eloquence escapes you
My logic ties you up and rapes you

http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/the_police/de_do_do_do_de_da_da_da.h
tml

GINOBIFFARONI

Friday, July 15, 2005 4:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BarnStormer:
Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:
We haven't heard from the original poster since the full video was linked to. I'd be interested to hear what he thinks about this in its proper context and whether he would have still posted this topic (complete with headline) if he had seen that.

Probably not. Either he was duped by a Far Far Left wing bit of false propaganda and posted it, or he was'nt duped, and decided to spread the Far Far Left Wing bit of false propaganda.

Judging from his posts in the past, I think it's more likely the latter.

In any case, none of these Far Far Left wing hypocrites will ever give in to the fact of what the video really shows. After all, that would mean they agree that the U.S. Military acted correctly.

Am I a Lion?... No, I think I'ma tellin' the truth.

BarnStormer

And I should start calling you names now ??

When my eloquence escapes you
My logic ties you up and rapes you

http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/the_police/de_do_do_do_de_da_da_da.h
tml

GINOBIFFARONI

Friday, July 15, 2005 4:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:
To be honest, I think the US Army has had a reputation for being overly trigger happy for decades (indeed my grandfather stated that the time his platoon felt most nervous was when the US soldiers were behind them, not when the Germans were in front of them.)

Maybe it's a cultural thing. Certainly we've witnessed too many bombings gone astray (villagers, Red Cross headquarters, the Chinese embassy).

However, I'm a stickler for topics in hand and this topic is about that bit of footage. When you see the whole, unedited video, it is absolutely clear (imo) that the troops acted correctly. What I'm trying to ascertain is whether the original poster agrees with me and whether he was aware of the full length video before his original post.

No, the clip was all I had seen, I'll try the link again in the morning.

BTW don't forget the Canadians in Afganistan, or the Brits in the first gulf war as victims or friendly fire ( never did get that term ? )

When my eloquence escapes you
My logic ties you up and rapes you

http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/the_police/de_do_do_do_de_da_da_da.h
tml

GINOBIFFARONI

Friday, July 15, 2005 4:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Hey, Inevitable, take a break maybe, but don't dissappear. I don't come to the RWE to change people's minds (well, not mostly), I come here to challenge my existing beliefs, or learn something from a different point of view.
At worst, it can be boring repetitive verbal sparring. But at best it can make us consider something we hadn't before.
My two cents.

Ain't no Herbert Chrisisall

This reminds me so much of the other links where I was comparing the board to fight club....

Very Interesting thread going here, I only wish we could all just defend our positions without the left loonie / right facist name calling.

I mean the question I get from reading all of these should be one all side need the answer to

Where is this all going to end ?

I can't believe any of us wants this situation to go on forever

When my eloquence escapes you
My logic ties you up and rapes you

http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/the_police/de_do_do_do_de_da_da_da.h
tml

SIGNYM

Friday, July 15, 2005 5:21 PM

Quote:
I would argue that those examples were, by and large, of a slightly different nature in agenda [but]...Indeed, the words our leader utilized at the time undoubtably had a great deal of sway on the shock and anger the general masses were feeling... But do I really think we'd 'stoop' to nuclear weapons as a response to a terrorist nuclear attack? I personally don't think so.
The moral thing to do for both a global and domestic image and support, would be to refuse the use of nuclear response as a means to say 'Hey! Look! We're not evil, if we were they'd be atoms already!'. No, I think we'll just stick with tomahawks, bombs, etc. It wouldn't do anyone any good to vaporise entire cities of innocents just to get a few 'bad guys'. I don't even think this office would stoop that low... But, the more interesting question is the one that asks: Who /will/ we fight in any instance post-nuclear attack? Will it be the country where the terrorists originate or operate from or will it be Iran, N. Korea, or any of the former Soviet states who's nuclear arms have slipped through their fingers like so much vodka?

I think calculations are made at several levels. There is the "general populace" calculation, where the average person looks at perceived costs and balances it against the perceived benefits. "Right" and "wrong" don't enter into it for most people. So in the case of Grenada the costs and benefits were both almost nil. In the case of Panama the perceived costs were higher (Panama had a regular army) but continued control of the canal was a big draw. But in the case of Iraq, the perceived costs were VERY high, and so the populace had to be stampeded into supporting the invasion by visions of Armageddon.

What would happen if Armageddon really happened, and either a/ several "dirty bomb(s)" or a "real" nuclear bomb(s) were to be set off in USA borders? Absolute and total panic. The populace would be primed for anything- panic buying, hoarding, profiteering, donating blood, burying themselves in basements, letting fly a nuclear response.

This is where (hopefully) the policy-makers are not as panicked as everyone else, and other calculations take place. And they have an entire population at their disposal, looking to them for direction and reassurance. They could either defuse the situation (as previously described by Rue) and turn the panic towards rebuilding, OR they could focus on the next available target in queue (IRAN) and respond with either tactical nuclear devices- already alluded to by Bush as an option he would like to keep open- or bunker-buster-bomb an active nuclear facility. At that point, neither China nor Russia would be happy campers. This is as far as my thinking takes me.

HKCAVALIER

Friday, July 15, 2005 6:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
...with the US advantage in military technology, does it make the playing field so uneven it results in " terrorism " types of attacks?

To me, this is the most important question. When only 147 Americans die in combat during Gulf War One compared to 22,000 iraqi deaths, can we really call it a war? When each one of our troops in effect killed 150 of theirs? If that was not a large scale massacre, then what is? 500 to 1? 1000 to 1? At what point does our aggression itself become an issue for us?

Think, please, just think what these kinds of body counts mean to the world beyond our borders. We are the only nation in history to drop atomic bombs on an enemy (killing 100,000 in a day). Doesn't any of this matter?

"This has all been covered before."

"It's old news."

"Lefties whining about non-events."

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

GINOBIFFARONI

Friday, July 15, 2005 6:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:
To be honest, I think the US Army has had a reputation for being overly trigger happy for decades (indeed my grandfather stated that the time his platoon felt most nervous was when the US soldiers were behind them, not when the Germans were in front of them.)

Maybe it's a cultural thing. Certainly we've witnessed too many bombings gone astray (villagers, Red Cross headquarters, the Chinese embassy).

However, I'm a stickler for topics in hand and this topic is about that bit of footage. When you see the whole, unedited video, it is absolutely clear (imo) that the troops acted correctly. What I'm trying to ascertain is whether the original poster agrees with me and whether he was aware of the full length video before his original post.

Well, I have gotten the link to play

I cannot positively identify the object in question as a weapon. I can say it does not appear to be either a RPG-7 or an RPG-16, it could be an RPG-18/22 but can''t be sure.

I froze the video it your link and compared it to a Soviet Equipment Recognition Guide I was issued back in 1992. The object seems too short to be a SA-7, SA-14, or a SA-16. Also it does not appear bulky enough to be an AT-3, AT-4, or AT-7.

While I have the advantage of freezing the image in question and reviewing books, the aircrew did not, they recieved clearance to shoot from higher authority. While I believe the aircrew acted withing the ROE, I still question the order to open fire in this case. Even though, the object cannot be positively identified ( even with the manuals and time to stare at it ) I still feel the correct course of action would have been the approach of dismounted infantry supported by the aircraft in question.

The individuals on the ground were acting it a strange manner ( I can't explain what they were up to ) My personal feelings is that alone was not reason enough to open fire. Investigate, definately. Fire, not enough info.

When my eloquence escapes you
My logic ties you up and rapes you

http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/the_police/de_do_do_do_de_da_da_da.h
tml

BARNSTORMER

Friday, July 15, 2005 6:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:
To be honest, I think the US Army has had a reputation for being overly trigger happy for decades (indeed my grandfather stated that the time his platoon felt most nervous was when the US soldiers were behind them, not when the Germans were in front of them.)

Maybe it's a cultural thing. Certainly we've witnessed too many bombings gone astray (villagers, Red Cross headquarters, the Chinese embassy).

However, I'm a stickler for topics in hand and this topic is about that bit of footage. When you see the whole, unedited video, it is absolutely clear (imo) that the troops acted correctly. What I'm trying to ascertain is whether the original poster agrees with me and whether he was aware of the full length video before his original post.

Well, I have gotten the link to play

I cannot positively identify the object in question as a weapon. I can say it does not appear to be either a RPG-7 or an RPG-16, it could be an RPG-18/22 but can''t be sure.

I froze the video it your link and compared it to a Soviet Equipment Recognition Guide I was issued back in 1992. The object seems too short to be a SA-7, SA-14, or a SA-16. Also it does not appear bulky enough to be an AT-3, AT-4, or AT-7.

While I have the advantage of freezing the image in question and reviewing books, the aircrew did not, they recieved clearance to shoot from higher authority. While I believe the aircrew acted withing the ROE, I still question the order to open fire in this case. Even though, the object cannot be positively identified ( even with the manuals and time to stare at it ) I still feel the correct course of action would have been the approach of dismounted infantry supported by the aircraft in question.

The individuals on the ground were acting it a strange manner ( I can't explain what they were up to ) My personal feelings is that alone was not reason enough to open fire. Investigate, definately. Fire, not enough info.

When my eloquence escapes you
My logic ties you up and rapes you

http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/the_police/de_do_do_do_de_da_da_da.h
tml

Well Stated Gino,

Now it comes down to what the "Man in the hot seat" has seen and knows prior to this video, what the men at the checkpoint saw and know ect, versus what we think we would do without the benefit of all that extra information.

All we see is a farmer running around trying to plow his fields with an RPG.

So, you got sucked in by someone elses misleading propoganda. My apologies for my previous remark.

Am I a Lion?... No, I think I'ma tellin' the truth.

BarnStormer

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