Video US helicopter guns down farmers
POSTED BY: GinoBiffaroni
UPDATED: Sunday, July 24, 2005 05:16
VIEWED: 9855
PAGE 3 of 9
Quote:
Good Point Chris, I would argue that this is the true origin of what is being called " terrorism "
The powers that be try to make all the rules ( to their own benefit ), fight a war on a completely uneven basis ( aircraft, technology ) that the opposition has no means to cope with... Then the powers that be proscute their war effort by anymeans they feel they have to, will if the otherside does the same, they are called " terrorists " and " cowards " for either not giving in, or standing around to be gunned down.
Perhaps the majority of support for the policys of this war, and those which caused it are supported by :
" This is the kind of thing people say who aren't on the receiving end of gunfire. "
and perhaps New York, Washington, and London is the response.
Once you have made the choice not to fight and not bend over and accept things or die
the how becomes the only real question, I think they are simply following the example of Western civilization... and who is really to blame for that ?
It's sad that you'd try to elevate the true inhuman terrorist/ street thugs to some sort of hero status just because they're not fighting in military aircraft. You'd better be thankful they aren't. It really sickens me to hear such nonsenses as the crap you spew. Sorry we share the same planet.
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Wow. A lot of footage totally without context, labeled, post action, by folks who have an agenda. Who knows what the real story is? This the best you got?
"Keep the Shiny side up"
Wow, I don't really feel I have an agenda
Just brought this up for conversation to discuss the ethics and morality ( or lack of it ) when it comes to modern day warfare.
HK and Chris brought up some excellent points concerning just how far a soldier in such a situation can or should go, I rebutted by pointing out if it had of been someone shooting Americans it would have been a " cowardly brutal attack "
SimonWho brought out the point that all wars going back into history have had there share of brutality
Barnstormer keeps saying its old news and propaganda, but that doesn't matter, I am not accusing... just discussing the morality of it all
Finn Mac and Geezer think there is more outside the video clip, and I do agree, but have to add
" Perhaps. But making up a fictitious back story to a 15 second war footage to accuse the US of war crimes that they didn’t commit very likely does = hating the U.S. "
The story may or may not be fictitious, one side may use it to accuse, to other to defend. Not what this is about, and in addition. The website this came from does have an anti war bias, but really, didn't the investigating authority in these incidents have an equal bias ? I'm looking more for definitions and understanding than a fight here. Its not like we have access to interviews, after-action reports, intel summarys, briefing notes, etc.
And finally AURAPTOR, as always finds someone he disagrees with, skips the discussion and arguement stage and goes directly to the personnal attacks
" It really sickens me to hear such nonsenses as the crap you spew. Sorry we share the same planet. "
So I ask the question, since the US blew up a pharmaceutical plant in Sudan, does that make every pharmaceutical plant in the US a fair target ?
Since the US blew up a automobile plant in Serbia, does that make every automobile plant plant in the US a fair target ?
Does justified action equal justified reaction
or does unjustified action equal unjustified
reaction
I'm going out of town for a few days, look forward to some well thought out debate when I get back
When my eloquence escapes you
My logic ties you up and rapes you
http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/the_police/de_do_do_do_de_da_da_da.h
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Hello,
I may be mistaken, but I am fairly sure that an excerpt of this footage was included, without backstory, in the film Ferenheit 911.
I happened to catch that movie on HBO earlier tonight, and I'm pretty sure this footage was there.
There is not enough information in the video clip to make much of a judgement about its contents. It may seem callous, but my first reaction upon seeing the footage was, "I wonder why they don't just destroy the vehicle that the man is hiding behind, rather than waiting for him to poke his head out."
Certainly, there was sufficient firepower available to obliterate the entire vehicle.
Another thought that occurred to me, was that I had no idea that a helicopter could be far enough away to be unheard by these people, and yet be able to perform precision burst fire capable of killing a single individual.
I will give this much of an opinion: I don't think these people were ignoring the helicopter. They didn't appear to be aware of its presence. This speaks well about the technological sophistication of the helicopter in question. It can either target accurately from a great distance away, or travel relatively silently... or both.
I know these aren't the kinds of thoughts or observations that the poster of the footage intended to provoke. But these are the thoughts that I had.
--Anthony
Edit: Upon further reflection of the footage, I feel that the Helicopter gunner probably didn't realize the man was hiding behind the truck until he poked his head out. Perhaps it is a video game mentality that suggests to me that the vehicles should have been obliterated on the off chance that there were targets within or behind them.
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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" I know these aren't the kinds of thoughts or observations that the poster of the footage intended to provoke. But these are the thoughts that I had.
--Anthony "
I'll agree that the technology is extremely impressive. The M230 30-mm automatic cannon is an extremely accurate trouble free weapon, I suspect that this footage involved the radar equipped D model, and the autorange feature was seeking a return from one of the trucks.
Another point, I live fairly close to an airport with a fair amount of helicopter traffic. I have noticed by sound alone it is hard to track on the exact direction of a helicopter in flight if it is several kilometers away and at altitude. In addition, if there was other sources of noise... tractor or trucks running, perhaps other aircraft in the area, it would be easy to ignore the sound of one helicopter orbiting a distance away.
But hey, based only on info in the clip ( we do not have the full story here, and likely never will, this is only for the purpose of arguement ) Your have a tractor ( as an old farmboy, I'll testify it was a tractor) and two trucks. Three people, two clearly unarmed ( during the clip anyway )
Based only on what was seen, were the actions appropriate ?
Feel free to duck the question if you don't want to get into this debate. Also if you want to throw in anymore observations on aviation technology please, kinda into it myself.
BTW like your signature,
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
kinda fits right in to this topic
When my eloquence escapes you
My logic ties you up and rapes you
http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/the_police/de_do_do_do_de_da_da_da.h
tml
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Kinda like the sadism of stringing up four burned and mutilated bodies from a bridge, huh? It's real easy to paint things as black or white when you only tell 1 side of the story.
Care to share your inside information that shows that the people in this video are the ones doing the burning and stringing? Or are you saying that it would be perfectly fine and justified and start blowing up Americans if some of them committed acts of sadism?
Also, are you always just blindly believing what some official military pr guy is saying, no matter if there is evidence or not? Because in that case I am confused. Official sources said there are no American troops in the streets of Baghdad, so what's going on? Or is it just your officials that are shiny beacons of virtue that would never ever tell a single lie while "the others" are automatically evil murderers and liars, most likely possessed by the devil himself?
Talking about black and white worlds.
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I must admit that I watched the video and was horrified. Three probably innocent men just gunned down from a distance. I didn't have so much of a problem with them "finishing off" the third guy as the idea of not killing a wounded man is only applicable under controlled circumstances, i.e. he's down on the ground, has no weapons in reach, you're not under fire.
But when I get presented with something apparently important like this, I don't mind spending a few minutes investigating it a little more thoroughly. And what did I find?
Context. This video was taken on 1 December 2003 in central Iraq a few hundred yards from an American checkpoint. But more importantly, this video was edited and deliberately so as to make the helicopter troops look like random murderers.
Here's the full video:
http://virus.shackspace.com/videos/apache_mission_in_iraq.avi
Now you can see what actually happened. Two men meet, one of them runs into the field and drops what appears to be either a rocket launcher or a grenade launcher. They spot the helicopter, run forward and back, apparently unsure if they should retrieve the launcher or not. Another man driving a tractor arrives and talks to one of the men and then as one of the original pair walks back, he is killed after the copter crew have asked for clearence and waited until it was given. The tractor driver then doesn't try to duck for cover, instead he pulls the cover off the weapon that was dropped (you can see this really clearly even in the edited version). The gunner shoots him before he can ready it. They then shoot, wound then kill the last remaining man.
I know the government has been lying about the war. But we stand no chance of nailing them for any of the lies if evidence is also manufactured in the other direction. Those fake Mirror photos were bad enough (several of which I came across again in this bit of research) but obviously the person who uploaded this video didn't think that their charge of "war crimes" would hold against attacks on those who were obviously guilty so they just cut out the evidence of their guilt.
The helicopter crew did a professional job, by the book and doubtlessly saved lives. Misrepresenting the evidence, even with the best of intentions, is appalling and should be condemned as strongly as possible.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Perhaps anyone not evacuated was 'fair game' by that time. One must look at the context of the war before passing judgement.
Indeed, I posted very quickly on that one. When I heard the comments made by the crew of the helicopter I almost cried at the casual talk going on as they targeted fellow human beings to be ripped to shreds as they walked. Efficiency in war demands dehumanization, and it gets the dander up fast with some.
Chrisisall
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Hrm...
Okay, I've had the fortune to see these videos within hours of the actual events transpiring. I've seen them whole and unedited as well as their newest truncated versions that made their way around the net once the files managed to worm their ways off the alleyways of the government internet.
Yup. I'm a part of that big, fearful, murdering, lying machine known as the US Government and Armed Services. Fear, tremble, hate!
War. It's nasty. Dirty. People die. They die horribly. They die screaming or without so much as a direct thought into what's happening before their life is snuffed out. Is it fair? Nope. But it's war.
Am I pro-American? Reactive, really. I can go either way. I'm not naive enough to think for an instant that my nation is the holy guiding light in the gorram 'verse for anything, let alone democracy. But, frankly, I don't think there's any better government or nation in the world. All I know is that I'd rather not live /anywhere/ else on the face of the Earth and under any other form of government.
To each their own. Opinions are like a***oles, everyone's got one. Sure. I'll listen to yours but there's nothing in the 'verse that'll make me agree with it just as you wont agree with mine. Not on this particular subject, anyways.
So...Video #1: The infamous 'innocent farmer' incident. Yup. Gunned down. The entire video does show suspected 'insurgents' hiding what appears to be weaponry. Operating on the ROE, the helocopter pilots performed their jobs without hesitation and professionally. Sometimes in war you can't go down and say 'Hey...Uhm...Is that a RPG or AK-47/74 you got there? Yeah? Okay. Stand here a moment, please'.
As for the third 'cold blooded killing'? Yeah. I work with a system that utilizes a DU (Depleted Uranium) projectile and can tell you that that killing was not needed. The man was already dead. The heavy metal would've made sure of that. All they did was kill him more ... humanely. Believe it or not.
I'm still undecided on what the firing aircraft was. The Apache has the single mounted swivel chaingun on the bottom. In the video it seems that there are two streams of tracers, indicating a dual mounted weapon. At least IMO. This, coupled with the fact that that actual video appear recorded at least ten to fifteen feet above the firing source would indicate to me that it was a Kiowa (sp?) scout craft or something similar where the optical suite is located above the rotor. Why didn't we see the rotors? Because the range was that which would enable the camera to peer 'past' them.
I'm also not sure whether or not the rounds were simple DU-inert or a HE-PD/AI round. The way the first man turned into mist would denote HE but the subsequent shots look more like DU-inert.
As for the range, that's also equally undetermined. I'm willing to wager between 2000-4000 meters. The shot angle of the 'source' is severe enough that the gun appears to be 'further' away from the camera than it really is. But the gun shakes a fraction of a second before the first bullets are seen on screen. This tells me that the camera is the source craft and that the range is far enough for the bullets to travel a good distance before coming into view.
Video #2: The street bombing.
Okay. This one's much shorter. I can't remember if the aircraft was identified as a 16, 15, or 18 in the after action report.
Anyways, there's approximately 30-40 people walking down a street in a town that had a telegraphed assault going on. Also, these men know something is up. As you watch them round the corner, they begin to scatter a few seconds prior to the bomb impact.
Now...Fallujah. /Everyone/ knew this assault was happening. Alot of people left. Some innocents didn't. You are in a warzone and you know it.
Also, looking at the reports that came out of this assault late-2003/early-2004, you see documented footage from independent sources that /show/ you the type of 'assault' that was happening there.
You see barefooted teenagers holdi
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SimonWho,
Thanks for finding that video. It's obvious that this is the same video posted by Gino, just edited to put the worst light on the coalition forces. Editted and attached to a bogus headline meant to make the coalition forces look like "war criminals" instead of the moral, well trained soldiers that they are.
Gino named this thread
"Video US helicopter guns down farmers"
HHmmmm, gee, that doesnt in any way put an anti U.S. slant on the thread does it.
No, Nope, I don't see any bias here. None at all.
Am I a Lion?... No, I think I'ma tellin' the truth.
BarnStormer
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They once did a fascinating experiment at a university lecture. They handed out a drawing to every member of the class then projected this image onto the board:
They then asked the students how old they thought the woman was. Half the class said she was young and pretty, the other half said old and crone-like. The reason was that the half the drawings handed out were a rough sketch of that drawing but made to emphasise the old person, the other half of the drawings made to emphasise the young.
What was fascinating was that when they exchanged the sketches, saw the other half's view, etc, etc, they still mostly saw the sketch the first way they had been introduced to it. I feel confident that a lot of people who watched the deliberately truncated video will feel they saw a war crime or at least an overhasty assault even after seeing the full video.
First impressions last, even when contradicted by later evidence. That's why it's so important to be sure of something major before spreading it around a popular forum (remember all the trouble Static had over that July 29th release date, plus if I have to tell one more person that there's no such thing as bonsai kittens...)
Focht, elsewhere I came across a post from someone claiming they were in the military and they saw the video then later found out that they discovered arms in the back of the truck. Do you know anything on that?
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