Video US helicopter guns down farmers
POSTED BY: GinoBiffaroni
UPDATED: Sunday, July 24, 2005 05:16
VIEWED: 9855
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Things happen in war.
This is the kind of thing people say who aren't on the receiving end of gunfire.
If they were bad guys, why no 'Down on the ground' announcements? I admit that the circumstances are vague, but blasting the wounded guy on the ground was wrong from any place you want to argue.
I'm not trying to pick a fight, just consider that maybe we should behave better than that no matter what the situation.
Chrisisall
Good Point Chris, I would argue that this is the true origin of what is being called " terrorism "
The powers that be try to make all the rules ( to their own benefit ), fight a war on a completely uneven basis ( aircraft, technology ) that the opposition has no means to cope with... Then the powers that be proscute their war effort by anymeans they feel they have to, will if the otherside does the same, they are called " terrorists " and " cowards " for either not giving in, or standing around to be gunned down.
Perhaps the majority of support for the policys of this war, and those which caused it are supported by :
" This is the kind of thing people say who aren't on the receiving end of gunfire. "
and perhaps New York, Washington, and London is the response.
Once you have made the choice not to fight and not bend over and accept things or die
the how becomes the only real question, I think they are simply following the example of Western civilization... and who is really to blame for that ?
When my eloquence escapes you
My logic ties you up and rapes you
http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/the_police/de_do_do_do_de_da_da_da.h
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Quote:
Originally posted by BarnStormer:
Actually, I believe that this is a video that came out just after the fall of Bahgdad. The "victims" were not farmers, but Iraqi "Fediyeen Saddam" (sp) who were dropping off or gathering up (can't remember which) RPG's for use against coalition troops.
This is old news repackaged as Anti U.S. propaganda.
Am I a Lion?... No, I think I'ma tellin' the truth.
BarnStormer
Gino,
You can keep spouting this Farmer war crime thing all you want, but remember, your source for this thread used years old video that was released by the US Army just after the fall of Bahgdad showing an operation against Iraqi troops in possession of a load of RPG's (ie Enemy combatants in wartime).
This is no war crime. The explanation given by this newspaper as to the contents of the video are blatantly false. This video was shown on CNN years ago with the correct explanation.
Again, this video is OLD NEWS repackaged by someone else and given a false and nefarious explanation to be used as Anti U.S. Propoganda.
Am I a Lion?... No, I think I'ma tellin' the truth.
BarnStormer
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Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
The resistance fighters in Iraq and Afganistan surely can have the same arguements made on their actions, despite the way the US government and media demonizes the fight against the US, do they not deserve the same " compassion " you hold for the US troops, and failing that at the very least respect ? Especially considering it is their country for which they are fighting ?
Of course. In some cases, even more, because we are an invading force and at least some of the folks we're killing over there are defending land their people have held for several centuries.
Quote:
Hell, for that matter your arguements could be applied to the so called " terrorist " as well.
Could not your definition of soldier apply there as well ?
I believe the widescale dehumanization of "the enemy" began with the invention of ariel bombing. 150,000 civilians died in the Dresden firebombings, 50 times the number of people who died on 9/11. We ended the Second World War with an act of terrorism that killed over 100,000 civilians. Back in the day, when you killed a civilian, it was a terrible error. Now it's policy.
Quote:
If it is completely acceptable to gun down farmers in their fields... then people riding the subway is not a far stretch is it ?
Not a far stretch at all, really, is it? But, I never said that gunning down farmers was "completely acceptable," only that it was an unavoidable correlative of war. I don't believe war is "completely acceptable" either, I believe it is thoroughly unacceptable, but there are exceptions. That's why you don't go to war unless they're invading your land, you know, that whole imminent threat thing. The "war on terror" finesses the point because terrorism per se is always an imminent threat. The other problem, of course, is that This "war on terror" has rendered the entire world a battle field and every person on it either "for us or against us."
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Should we consider the family members that those people might have lost, the horrors they may have been exposed to before we pass judgement on their actions ?
Absolutely. Makes things kinda complicated, don't it?
Quote:
I believe you and I agree on many points, but extending the arguments leads us down a road with no laws, no accountabilty. Is that really what our society is about, and if so... do we deserve that which we face because of it ?
Welcome to the dilemma. In a world where people with sufficient power, wealth and/or public support can avoid the law, is there law?
Quote:
" We train our young men to drop fire on people, but their commanders will not allow them to write Fuck on their airplanes.....
Because it is obscene... "
Col Kurtz
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Thank you HK for the interesting conversation,
If more people were willing to engage in open debates about morality, conduct and the consequences of not really having any above board consequences... I think many of the troubles we face could be put to bed in a more reasonable manner.
BTW Barnstormer, we are talking of generalities, the exact incident this footage repersents does'nt really matter, thinks like this have happened, been investigated and justified... no one is screaming for charges to be laid
The debate is more about is it morally right
the people in both videos held no arms, did not return fire... other cases in point have occured such as some of the air attacks on villages in Afganistan that contained " suspected " militants
Vietnam should have taught the world that even with all the force available, you can't win a war without winning over the people of a country, otherwise they just keep fighting and resisting until eventually the price for you to remain simply becomes too high and you go.
The US has always feared accountabilty for their actions ( at least accountability beyond their direct control ) hence the withdraw of support for the ICC ( other people get tried there not Americans ) The lack of respect for the UN. Hell even NATO.
Your politicans want international support, they want countrys like mine to provide troops and money to support your goals... If you have failed to win even us over, how can you expect to win over the enemy whose father was gunned down plowing his field, or who lost a sister to cancers caused by your DU shells, or . Well if I have to go on the point is completely lost anyway.
When my eloquence escapes you
My logic ties you up and rapes you
http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/the_police/de_do_do_do_de_da_da_da.h
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Quote:
Originally posted by BarnStormer:
Again, this video is OLD NEWS repackaged by someone else and given a false and nefarious explanation to be used as Anti U.S. Propoganda.
BarnStormer, assuming that you are correct, it still works for me as anti-WAR propaganda.
And please remember: Hating war does not = hating the U.S.
Sorry, you know this already Chrisisall
Edited to add: War, like anything else in this country, is a buisness, loaded with corporate- style incompetence. Thing is that in the office, incompetence might cause a package to be late, or a good worker to be fired by mistake, whereas in war incompetence gets innocents killed.
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Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Back in the day, when you killed a civilian, it was a terrible error. Now it's policy.
Which day was that? Armies have been raping and slaughtering civilians as policy for millenia. It's just recently though that we've been able to do it efficiently.
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Looks to me like gino or someone has invented his own backstory to a video that says absolutely nothing. Nothing about this video says that these individuals are farmers in their field or in any way innocent. That’s pure speculation. There's not an ounce of evidence for such a claim.
Quote:Perhaps. But making up a fictitious back story to a 15 second war footage to accuse the US of war crimes that they didn’t commit very likely does = hating the U.S.
Originally posted by chrisisall:
And please remember: Hating war does not = hating the U.S.
-------------
Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.
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Wow. A lot of footage totally without context, labeled, post action, by folks who have an agenda. Who knows what the real story is? This the best you got?
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Things happen in war.
This is the kind of thing people say who aren't on the receiving end of gunfire.
If they were bad guys, why no 'Down on the ground' announcements? I admit that the circumstances are vague, but blasting the wounded guy on the ground was wrong from any place you want to argue.
I'm not trying to pick a fight, just consider that maybe we should behave better than that no matter what the situation.
Chrisisall
Because 'down on the ground' announcements aren't even used in fighting street gangs in East L.A. ? I don't have all the answers, but Fallujah was a very hot zone of military action. Perhaps anyone not evacuated was 'fair game' by that time. One must look at the context of the war before passing judgement. There was very intense fighting at that time, hard for folks to cherry pick this or that video months, years after the fact and accuratly depeict what is going on.
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Here is some other video and reports that I believe also support my arguements:::
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BUN410A.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1220750,00.html
http://www.bzangygroink.co.uk/wordpress/archives/2004/09/12/us-helicop
ter-murders-children/
The first link has analysis from a former Special Forces Sergeant.
When my eloquence escapes you
My logic ties you up and rapes you
http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/the_police/de_do_do_do_de_da_da_da.h
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Exactly what IS your 'argument'? I checked out the 1st link, it's from a mission in Fallujah. Great shot of a bomb taking out a gang of thugs. I LOVE that one. No 'analysis' though. Maybe you meant another link? 2 vids, no 'war crimes' that I saw.
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
Perhaps if you scroll down a little you will find it, but I shall paste it in here :
War Crime
Stan Goff comments: "The “tell” is in the audio.
When the pilot asks permission to fire, he reports a large number of people… not armed people. People. And permission is granted instantly. This is an indication that the mission guidance is to shoot anyone who is in the street. This is a clear war crime, and one that begins with the commander's stated intent in the operations order. The pilot's exclamation of satisfaction, “Aw dude!” at the end just underlines how this casual sadism comes to dominate the psyches of those who are part of a military occupation force, and how the ground reality become “race war.”"
Stan Goff retired as a Master Sergeant from the US Army in 1996, his last assignment being 3rd Special Forces Group. He entered military service January, 1970, and his first assignment was as an infantryman with the 173rd Airborne Brigade in Vietnam. His service took him to seven more conflict areas after Vietnam, including Guatemala, Grenada, El Salvador, Peru, Colombia, Somalia, and Haiti. His assignments included 2nd Ranger Battalion, 1st Ranger Battalion, 75th Ranger Regiment, 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment-Delta, 7th Special Forces, the Jungle Operations Training Center, and the US Military Academy at West Point, where he taught military science.
When my eloquence escapes you
My logic ties you up and rapes you
http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/the_police/de_do_do_do_de_da_da_da.h
tml
Kinda like the sadism of stringing up four burned and mutilated bodies from a bridge, huh? It's real easy to paint things as black or white when you only tell 1 side of the story. And an incomplete version of that story at that.
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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