Video US helicopter guns down farmers

POSTED BY: GinoBiffaroni
UPDATED: Sunday, July 24, 2005 05:16
VIEWED: 9855
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GINOBIFFARONI

Monday, July 11, 2005 3:40 PM

http://cleveland.indymedia.org/print.php?id=8410

When my eloquence escapes you
My logic ties you up and rapes you

http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/the_police/de_do_do_do_de_da_da_da.h
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HKCAVALIER

Monday, July 11, 2005 5:34 PM

Hey Gino, could you maybe put some kind of warning about the graphic nature of the footage? I'm sure folks are curious but they may not want to see people methodically targeted and murdered on film.

For me, this video shows the fundamental absurdity of "war crimes." I have no doubt that this kind of thing happens all the time in every war. A soldier's job is to destroy people after all, not to empathize or even to mete out justice. They must be able to destroy people without question. You have to do something to most people before they are willing to destroy total strangers. Specifically, their natural empathy must be damaged, compromised, or at least given an "off" switch. Soldiering is not like being a cop. Soldiering requires that you be willing to kill without obvious provocation. If a soldier is only allowed to react to hostility, then that soldier is gonna get killed, like as not.

You and I can look at this video and see that the people on the ground are not in combat, unconcerned by the helicopter until it opens fire; but we don't know what's going on with the men in the helicopter. How many people have they already killed that morning? How many of their comrades have they lost in the last month or week or hour? I have more compassion for these men than to label them war criminals. To my mind, this so-called "war" is the crime, perpetrated on our young men and women by a government that's lost its way.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

GINOBIFFARONI

Monday, July 11, 2005 6:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Hey Gino, could you maybe put some kind of warning about the graphic nature of the footage? I'm sure folks are curious but they may not want to see people methodically targeted and murdered on film.

For me, this video shows the fundamental absurdity of "war crimes." I have no doubt that this kind of thing happens all the time in every war. A soldier's job is to destroy people after all, not to empathize or even to mete out justice. They must be able to destroy people without question. You have to do something to most people before they are willing to destroy total strangers. Specifically, their natural empathy must be damaged, compromised, or at least given an "off" switch. Soldiering is not like being a cop. Soldiering requires that you be willing to kill without obvious provocation. If a soldier is only allowed to react to hostility, then that soldier is gonna get killed, like as not.

You and I can look at this video and see that the people on the ground are not in combat, unconcerned by the helicopter until it opens fire; but we don't know what's going on with the men in the helicopter. How many people have they already killed that morning? How many of their comrades have they lost in the last month or week or hour? I have more compassion for these men than to label them war criminals. To my mind, this so-called "war" is the crime, perpetrated on our young men and women by a government that's lost its way.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

Sorry, I felt the title was warning enough...

as to your points ... sure we can accept the killing of civilians by soldiers. I was once a soldier myself, and to some extent agree with your thoughts... But lets place your points in a different context:

The resistance fighters in Iraq and Afganistan surely can have the same arguements made on their actions, despite the way the US government and media demonizes the fight against the US, do they not deserve the same " compassion " you hold for the US troops, and failing that at the very least respect ? Especially considering it is their country for which they are fighting ?

Hell, for that matter your arguements could be applied to the so called " terrorist " as well.
Could not your definition of soldier apply there as well ?

" They must be able to destroy people without question. You have to do something to most people before they are willing to destroy total strangers. "

" Soldiering requires that you be willing to kill without obvious provocation. "

If it is completely acceptable to gun down farmers in their fields... then people riding the subway is not a far stretch is it ?

Should we consider the family members that those people might have lost, the horrors they may have been exposed to before we pass judgement on their actions ?

The standards of conduct of both sides MUST be the same, if such actions as the video is permisable... then how far down the road does that lead. If one side crosses the line, does it make it alright for the other to as well ?

I believe you and I agree on many points, but extending the arguments leads us down a road with no laws, no accountabilty. Is that really what our society is about, and if so... do we deserve that which we face because of it ?

" We train our young men to drop fire on people, but their commanders will not allow them to write Fuck on their airplanes.....

Because it is obscene... "

Col Kurtz

BARNSTORMER

Monday, July 11, 2005 6:41 PM

Actually, I believe that this is a video that came out just after the fall of Bahgdad. The "victims" were not farmers, but Iraqi "Fediyeen Saddam" (sp) who were dropping off or gathering up (can't remember which) RPG's for use against coalition troops.

This is old news repackaged as Anti U.S. propaganda.

Am I a Lion?... No, I think I'ma tellin' the truth.

BarnStormer

GINOBIFFARONI

Monday, July 11, 2005 7:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BarnStormer:
Actually, I believe that this is a video that came out just after the fall of Bahgdad. The "victims" were not farmers, but Iraqi "Fediyeen Saddam" (sp) who were dropping off or gathering up (can't remember which) RPG's for use against coalition troops.

This is old news repackaged as Anti U.S. propaganda.

Am I a Lion?... No, I think I'ma tellin' the truth.

BarnStormer

While not a photo intrepetation specialist... I can identify a tractor, a pickup and a 3 ton truck. The two people in the left were definately not carrying weapons ( in this clip anyway )

There is no date stamp, but the when is really irrelavant to the arguements .

When my eloquence escapes you
My logic ties you up and rapes you

http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/the_police/de_do_do_do_de_da_da_da.h
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AURAPTOR

Monday, July 11, 2005 7:33 PM

Looks like a clean operation to me. No way can anyone tell in that context exactly what those folks are doing, so the claim ' this is a war crime' is ludicrous. They could be terrorist just caught at unawares, or merely attempting to act like civilians... could be a whole list of things. It could be that they shot innocents. Hell, I've seen video where mis communications resulted in the methodical shooting of our own troops. Things happen in war.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

GINOBIFFARONI

Monday, July 11, 2005 7:35 PM

Here is some other video and reports that I believe also support my arguements:::

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BUN410A.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1220750,00.html

http://www.bzangygroink.co.uk/wordpress/archives/2004/09/12/us-helicop
ter-murders-children/

The first link has analysis from a former Special Forces Sergeant.

When my eloquence escapes you
My logic ties you up and rapes you

http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/the_police/de_do_do_do_de_da_da_da.h
tml

AURAPTOR

Monday, July 11, 2005 7:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Here is some other video and reports that I believe also support my arguements:::

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BUN410A.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1220750,00.html

http://www.bzangygroink.co.uk/wordpress/archives/2004/09/12/us-helicop
ter-murders-children/

The first link has analysis from a former Special Forces Sergeant.

When my eloquence escapes you
My logic ties you up and rapes you

http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/the_police/de_do_do_do_de_da_da_da.h
tml

Exactly what IS your 'argument'? I checked out the 1st link, it's from a mission in Fallujah. Great shot of a bomb taking out a gang of thugs. I LOVE that one. No 'analysis' though. Maybe you meant another link? 2 vids, no 'war crimes' that I saw.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

CHRISISALL

Monday, July 11, 2005 7:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Things happen in war.

This is the kind of thing people say who aren't on the receiving end of gunfire.

If they were bad guys, why no 'Down on the ground' announcements? I admit that the circumstances are vague, but blasting the wounded guy on the ground was wrong from any place you want to argue.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, just consider that maybe we should behave better than that no matter what the situation.

Chrisisall

GINOBIFFARONI

Monday, July 11, 2005 8:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Here is some other video and reports that I believe also support my arguements:::

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BUN410A.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1220750,00.html

http://www.bzangygroink.co.uk/wordpress/archives/2004/09/12/us-helicop
ter-murders-children/

The first link has analysis from a former Special Forces Sergeant.

When my eloquence escapes you
My logic ties you up and rapes you

http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/the_police/de_do_do_do_de_da_da_da.h
tml

Exactly what IS your 'argument'? I checked out the 1st link, it's from a mission in Fallujah. Great shot of a bomb taking out a gang of thugs. I LOVE that one. No 'analysis' though. Maybe you meant another link? 2 vids, no 'war crimes' that I saw.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

Perhaps if you scroll down a little you will find it, but I shall paste it in here :

War Crime

Stan Goff comments: "The “tell” is in the audio.

When the pilot asks permission to fire, he reports a large number of people… not armed people. People. And permission is granted instantly. This is an indication that the mission guidance is to shoot anyone who is in the street. This is a clear war crime, and one that begins with the commander's stated intent in the operations order. The pilot's exclamation of satisfaction, “Aw dude!” at the end just underlines how this casual sadism comes to dominate the psyches of those who are part of a military occupation force, and how the ground reality become “race war.”"

Stan Goff retired as a Master Sergeant from the US Army in 1996, his last assignment being 3rd Special Forces Group. He entered military service January, 1970, and his first assignment was as an infantryman with the 173rd Airborne Brigade in Vietnam. His service took him to seven more conflict areas after Vietnam, including Guatemala, Grenada, El Salvador, Peru, Colombia, Somalia, and Haiti. His assignments included 2nd Ranger Battalion, 1st Ranger Battalion, 75th Ranger Regiment, 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment-Delta, 7th Special Forces, the Jungle Operations Training Center, and the US Military Academy at West Point, where he taught military science.

When my eloquence escapes you
My logic ties you up and rapes you

http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/the_police/de_do_do_do_de_da_da_da.h
tml

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