*spoiler* Question about Forgiving
POSTED BY: AURaptor
UPDATED: Saturday, July 16, 2005 11:42
VIEWED: 6023
PAGE 2 of 2
Quote:
Originally posted by Bobster:
Hey folks -- first time poster here, semi-long time lurker (I've been around Whedonesque some)....
Actually had a slightly similar reaction to that scene (but now I'm trying to remember when Frodo actually tried to kill Sam...don't really remember it ever quite getting to that point...)
Re: pillow as weapon of death....I would add that it's possible that, semiconsiously or subconsciously, Angel wasn't so sure he really wanted Wes dead and was just sort of "acting out" out of super-extreme anger...but since he's a killer, his type of "acting out" can be deadly. If he'd snapped his neck or "ate" Wes, that would be the kind of cold blooded murder the fang gang would never countenance.
I didn't get the impression that Angel cared one bit what anyone else thought of how he treated Wes at that moment. And the more I ponder it, the less I think of Angel. Wes wasn't faultless, but knowing what he risked for the sake of saving BabyConner......it showed true loyalty.(misguided, as it was) I doubt, were I Wes, I'd have any problem in staking Angel.
As per Frodo, it was more explicit in PJs version than in Tolkiens book. Still, when Frodo DID turn on Sam, it was because Frodo wasn't himself...power of the ring, and all.
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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My first son is on the way (days away, even). I gotta say, if I'm in Angel's position, I probably do something similar. Surely, no one expects him to hear of Wesley's good intentions, then all of a sudden go, "Oh, I get it. That's OK," then start whistling and walk away like it's no big deal.
Connor was his son - his ONLY son - and he shouldn't have been able to exist in the first place. Quite a father-son bond, if you ask me. There's no way to predict what might happen when a bond like that is broken, and I thought that scene captured that feeling perfectly.
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"MY APOCALYPTIC TENOR HAS NOT BEEN DISPELLED!" - T-Rex ( www.qwantz.com)
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this was always Wesley's big problem:
when he first shows up on Buffy he ignores what the experienced people say and he acts with total arrogance. He thinks he is the smartest one and can just decide things that effect the lives of other people. He screwed up with Faith, but he didn't really learn his lesson.
He had no business making any decisions for Angel or his baby, he had no rights or authority over their lives (and he had had with Faith). He just decides he knows what is right and does it.
That is not the way a team works, he should have discussed it with everyone.
And of course it does turn out he was completely wrong, that the prophecy was false....
So personally I don't think Angel's reaction was that over-the-top (if the question ever arises, don't ever steal anyone's baby away from them...they will not thank you for it, no matter how well intentioned you believe yourself to be).
Having said that, I will say that I adore Wes; I think his character arc is more interesting than anyone else on Angel. Him ending up all alone and bitter (and sleeping with the enemy) is all good IMO!
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Quote:
Originally posted by STEVEthePIRATE:
My first son is on the way (days away, even). I gotta say, if I'm in Angel's position, I probably do something similar. Surely, no one expects him to hear of Wesley's good intentions, then all of a sudden go, "Oh, I get it. That's OK," then start whistling and walk away like it's no big deal.
Connor was his son - his ONLY son - and he shouldn't have been able to exist in the first place. Quite a father-son bond, if you ask me. There's no way to predict what might happen when a bond like that is broken, and I thought that scene captured that feeling perfectly.
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"MY APOCALYPTIC TENOR HAS NOT BEEN DISPELLED!" - T-Rex ( www.qwantz.com)
See, the problem w/ your scenario is that it fails to take into account a couple of key things.
1. Wesley assumed the prophecy was right. He had no reason NOT to.
2. Angel's irrational moods. Especially when he was about to snap Conner's head off. Naw, no warning signs there. I'd ignore any silly prophecy my own self.
Angel should be angry. Angry at Holtz, at Wolfram & Hart, but not Wes. Wes, as Sahjhan said, was the only one that showed half a spine in all this by carrying out ( what Wes THOUGHT) was the right thing to do. Lorn was dead on, but no one pays attention to what he has to say. ( What part of always being right do they NOT get? )
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Well, he was "Head boy" after all...
Apathy on the Rise. No One Cares.
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AURaptor,
I think we understand why you're upset. But you're expecting a reasoned and compassionate response from a guy who had just had his only son taken away from him forever (he thought). Guess what, you're not going to get a reasoned and compassionate response from someone in that situation - not Angel, or any other guy who had just had his only son stolen from him. Wes' rationale and intent ARE IRRELEVANT to Angel. To Angel, his son is gone, period - and Wes is the guy who stole him away. That's the only thing he cares about. Angel's reaction is purely emotional. If you can't understand that reaction, then I'm pretty sure you've never had a son. That's the only reason I can think of why Angel's actions don't seem completely natural to you, like they do to me.
Apathy on the Rise. No One Cares.
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Ok well im not sure if this has been said yet (i only read a few reply's) But... first off conner would have been fine if he was not taken, angel got a taste for his blood yes, but he would never kill his son... well unless of course you take the season finally into account but thats a different situation, back to the one at hand.
Whats Angels reason for trying to kill wes, frodo went mad because of the ring... ok, but
Angels son was just dragged into a hell dimension with angels enemy, never to return, and most likely die! hmm i wonder why hed be mad as wesley... If it were me... id take my axe into that damn hospital rather than having the sympathy that angel did have. if angel really wanted wes dead hed be dead, angel was just making a point. That he hated wes.
"You can live with a man for fourty years , share his meals, talk on every subject, then tie him up, and hold him over the volanoes edge. And on that day, you will finally meet the man"
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Quote:
... if angel really wanted wes dead hed be dead, angel was just making a point. That he hated wes.
Probably the best way to explain it. Despite Angel's understanding of why Wes did what he THOUGHT was the right thing to do, Conner was gone. Angel was pissed off, and Wes bore the brunt of that rage. I get it more now, but I still don't like it.
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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