*spoiler* Question about Forgiving
POSTED BY: AURaptor
UPDATED: Saturday, July 16, 2005 11:42
VIEWED: 6023
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Ok, so I'm enjoying watching Angel reruns. Goodie goodie for the folks at TNT. And I know all this has been hashed out eons ago, so I won't bother w/ the spoiler stuff, but here goes anyway...
Just saw the ep where Wes thinks he's saving Baby Conner from Angel. After everything falls out, and Wes 'somehow' gets saved from the throat slashing, everyone puts the pieces together of what went down. What Wes did took a great amount of guts. Angel has everything explained to him, and it's damn clear that had Wes NOT taken action, Conner would be dead. Period. And things almost worked out for the best, as Angel came close to saving Conner. So, knowing all that, why does Angel STILL try to murder Wes??...even as Angel's just acknowledged that he KNEW why Wes did what he did..because he was trying to SAVE Conner!! Grrrrrr! I've not seen such betrayal of one character toward another like this since Frodo tried to kill Sam in LOTR!! Truly a low mark of the story. But at least Frodo was half mad from the power of the Ring. What the hell is Angel's excuse ?
Flame away all you want, but this has taken some of the shine off my view of all things Joss. It simply made no sense.
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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I'm not going to get into the Angel-Wes thing but something else. As I watched the ep (Forgiving 3-17) again it hit me for the first time, is it just me or does the little girl in the white room have an uncanny resemblance to Eve from season 5?
"Captain, I sure would like to know where you are going with this?"
"Someplace very dark. I hope to God I'm wrong."
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Quote:
Originally posted by HotForKaylee:
I'm not going to get into the Angel-Wes thing but something else. As I watched the ep (Forgiving 3-17) again it hit me for the first time, is it just me or does the little girl in the white room have an uncanny resemblance to Eve from season 5?
"Captain, I sure would like to know where you are going with this?"
"Someplace very dark. I hope to God I'm wrong."
Hey, I was thinking the same thing! Not sure who it was I thought it was, but she sure did look familiar.
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Going back to your original question... Everything you said was true, except... I don't see why you said that if Wes had not taken action, Connor would have been dead. I got out of it that Connor would have been just fine if Wes had done nothing at all. And the big point is actually made by Fred in a subsequent episode (unfortunately, I don't remember which one, but it's coming up soon after this one - obviously). The point is: Whatever Wes had found, he 1) Shouldn't have acted on his own; 2) Should have told the people he trusts and works with (Fred, Gunn, Cordy, Lorne) rather than 3) going to Angel's worst enemy, Holtz, with the information.
In an episode soon to follow, Fred tells Wes all of this, and Wes realizes that she's right.
As to Angel trying to kill Wes... his son had just been spirited away to a hell dimension from which he was, in all probablility, likely never to return. If someone had done that to my son, I'd want to kill them, too - no matter what their reason for doing it was...
I hope that helps explain (my take) on Angel's motivations and Wes' culpability.
Apathy on the Rise. No One Cares.
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Yup, Angel wasn't going to just forgive and forget what Wesley did. This was his son, a miracle that he should never have gotten and Wes took it away from him.
Plus he's used to killing people. Makes it that much easier if Wesley was merely number 185,582 rather than number 1.
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What they said ^
One other thing: I've noticed a few people coming on recently to chat about Buffy and Angel as they're watching them for the first time. Maybe it would be better to title your post 'Question about Forgiving' instead of writing a spoiler where people can't help but read it.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:
Yup, Angel wasn't going to just forgive and forget what Wesley did. This was his son, a miracle that he should never have gotten and Wes took it away from him.
Plus he's used to killing people. Makes it that much easier if Wesley was merely number 185,582 rather than number 1.
So why the pillow-over-the-face bit? Snap Wes's neck, throw a few punches, etc. Hey, Wes DOES have that fresh wound on the neck...no ideas form that, Angel?
As for why Wes didn't communicate w/ the rest of the gang... who knows. Beating up on Lorn, even for the sake of saving BabyConner...meh. To me, that shows the level of desperation on Wes's part, and how alone he felt. Not to mention the burden he was carrying, whether real or imagined. HE thought it was real, and that's all that matters. Why he felt that way, I can't say.
I kinda makes me think of SW RotS. Aniken has to choose between killing Palpetine right then and there( taking the law into his own hand ) or doing what is viewed as the JEDI way....turing him over to the proper authorities.
Damned if you do, either way.
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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I am assuming from some of the things you've said, that you haven't seen episodes subsequent to "Forgiving", yet. When you do, you'll come to find out more information, that is currently not known, that will show you Wes definitely did the wrong thing. Granted, he did the wrong thing for the right reasons, but it was still the wrong thing - and Fred's subsequent lambasting of him for not coming to her, or Cordy, or Gunn is spot on correct. Just trusting his friends might have prevented this whole mess.
Apathy on the Rise. No One Cares.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:
Yup, Angel wasn't going to just forgive and forget what Wesley did. This was his son, a miracle that he should never have gotten and Wes took it away from him.
Plus he's used to killing people. Makes it that much easier if Wesley was merely number 185,582 rather than number 1.
So why the pillow-over-the-face bit? Snap Wes's neck, throw a few punches, etc. Hey, Wes DOES have that fresh wound on the neck...no ideas form that, Angel?
As for why Wes didn't communicate w/ the rest of the gang... who knows. Beating up on Lorn, even for the sake of saving BabyConner...meh. To me, that shows the level of desperation on Wes's part, and how alone he felt. Not to mention the burden he was carrying, whether real or imagined. HE thought it was real, and that's all that matters. Why he felt that way, I can't say.
I kinda makes me think of SW RotS. Aniken has to choose between killing Palpetine right then and there( taking the law into his own hand ) or doing what is viewed as the JEDI way....turing him over to the proper authorities.
Damned if you do, either way.
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
It's Wes' fatal flaw: trying to solve a problem all on his own and ultimately making it worse. He's been doing this since season 3 of "Buffy" with his handling of Faith. The tragedy is that he doesn't seem to learn from his previous screw-ups.
As for the pillow? If Angel wants Wes to suffer, suffocation is slower than neck-snapping or artery-draining. As you remember, he was supremely pissed. Blood being thicker than water and all.
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Hey folks -- first time poster here, semi-long time lurker (I've been around Whedonesque some)....
Actually had a slightly similar reaction to that scene (but now I'm trying to remember when Frodo actually tried to kill Sam...don't really remember it ever quite getting to that point...)
Re: pillow as weapon of death....I would add that it's possible that, semiconsiously or subconsciously, Angel wasn't so sure he really wanted Wes dead and was just sort of "acting out" out of super-extreme anger...but since he's a killer, his type of "acting out" can be deadly. If he'd snapped his neck or "ate" Wes, that would be the kind of cold blooded murder the fang gang would never countenance.
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