Someone's Been Reading This Board Too Long
POSTED BY: HKCavalier
UPDATED: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 06:18
VIEWED: 7792
PAGE 6 of 8
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Antarctica is not a country. It is a territory administratively held by 28 signatory countries.
Thanks. That's what I figured, an enemy.
At least in part(s).
Let's invade the demon Antactica!!!! Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
( except Canada, they're always our friend, plus they shot Dark Angel there
Not all of us
When my eloquence escapes you
My logic ties you up and rapes you
http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/the_police/de_do_do_do_de_da_da_da.h
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:Quote:Yeah, that’s the question I just asked you. France, Germany and Russia sold arms and/or provided assistance to Hussein right up to and possibly after the fall of the Hussein’s regime. So based on your argument, France, Germany and Russia are actively trying to kill Americans and therefore are enemies? Right?
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
As for France, Germany and Russia... If you caught them shipping arms to the freedom fighters of Iraq, wouldn't you call them your enemy ?
Lets hear your answer to this question ?
If no, then I call bullshit as the US would start bombing / invading Syria or Iran if they could prove their support
( unless you are saying it is inconvient to hold everyone uo to the same standard, which I think is your point )
If yes, I'd thank you for being honest... and ask when will you attack them ?
{ see note above )
Since the end of WorldWar 2, US foreign policy has interfered with / helped wipe out / promote tyranny/ etc / etc. Not in all cases, I'm not saying you can't do good, but in the many cases you have and continue to make enemys for no good reason.
For peace to happen, this has to stop. This war on " terror " cannot be allowed to have anyone win. AJLynch seems to think the world is envyous of Americans and thats why they want to attack you... I feel that it is more because you have helped to take away many peoples right to decide for themselves how they do things, who they do business with, etc
Europe is moving it that direction, without the North Korean threat ( stirred up by the US ) Japan, Korea and region would still be going that way too.
As for the middle-east. In the words of retired Marine General Anthony Zinni, your policys are borderline insane.
It is not a question of right or left, its simply a backlash to some sixty years of crappy, self indulgent policy.
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Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.
When my eloquence escapes you
My logic ties you up and rapes you
http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/the_police/de_do_do_do_de_da_da_da.h
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Quote:Well, that’s your story.
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Since the end of WorldWar 2, US foreign policy has interfered with / helped wipe out / promote tyranny/ etc / etc. Not in all cases, I'm not saying you can't do good, but in the many cases you have and continue to make enemys for no good reason.
According to you, “doing things like giving money and arms and training to tyrants” means that the US “has actively been trying to kill off” certain people. France, Germany and Russia did things like “giving money and arms and training to tyrants” (in this case Hussein’s regime) who were in the process of killing Americans, then according to you, France, Germany and Russia are trying to kill off Americans. Is France, Germany and Russia actively trying to “kill off” Americans?
If you are so confident in this line of thinking that you would presume the above statement without supporting evidence, you must surely be able to answer this simple question. Or is it rather arrogance that leads you to make these kinds of statements? Are you just bashing the US, or do you have some kind of coherent policy?
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Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
According to you, “doing things like giving money and arms and training to tyrants” means that the US “has actively been trying to kill off” certain people. France, Germany and Russia did things like “giving money and arms and training to tyrants” (in this case Hussein’s regime) who were in the process of killing Americans, then according to you, France, Germany and Russia are trying to kill off Americans. Is France, Germany and Russia actively trying to “kill off” Americans?
If you are so confident in this line of thinking that you would presume the above statement without supporting evidence, you must surely be able to answer this simple question. Or is it rather arrogance that leads you to make these kinds of statements? Are you just bashing the US, or do you have some kind of coherent policy?
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Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.
To begin, I ask again... what was your answer to that question ?
As for US policy killing off and interfering with the internal policys of other countrys where would you like to start ?
How about the mess you made of Iran ?
Lets go back to 1953, Eisenhower was President. Perhaps more important, John Foster Dulles was secretary of state.
I'm just going to stick in some links
http://www.grailwerk.com/docs/bostonglobe17.htm
http://www.rense.com/general40/roots.htm
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0304-21.htm
So 26 more years of the Shah running Iran, the American trained SAVAK security police arresting or killing ALL opposition including pro-democracy groups and religous groups. Mind you the Shah sold more than half of Irans oil production to US companys, so I guess principles get thrown out the window right ?
My policy, I would have stayed the hell out of it. Iran for Iranians, offer incentives. Fine. Overthrow their government to put in your puppet. If it were my country, that would make you my enemy.
Also providing arms and instructors to Iraq during its war of aggression against Iran ( hey isn't that why the US attacked Iraq when they went into Kuwait ? why did't you support the aggressor then )
http://www.zmag.org/zmag/articles/ShalomIranIraq.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Iraq_War
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A52241-2002Dec29?language=pri
nter
Mind you, the US is still committing many acts of war against Iran:
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/7896BBD4-28AB-48BA-A949-2096A02
F864D.htm
And if you weren't as well armed, they would likely call you on it. But we were talking about right and wrong, not simply because we can get away with it right? And before you say, hey other countrys were involved too, sure... and they are wrong too.
Lets see some links proving that Germany, France and Russia have been providing arms and money since your troops invaded. If so then as I said yes, they are your enemies. You have been the only source I have seen saying this. What is your answer to that question again ?
When my eloquence escapes you
My logic ties you up and rapes you
http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/the_police/de_do_do_do_de_da_da_da.h
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Gino, one can't deny the US has done major crappy stuff ( Contras, anyone? ), It's just that your argument is too absolutist. Many nations 'back' questional regimes, and those regimes may have a hand in getting people of yet another nation killed. It's a sick, dirty game- I wish it were different, but it's not.
Japan tried to take over the world with Germany, and failed. Is the world their enemy now?
I can agree with you that the US has made a LOT of enemies, and continues to do so to this day, but it's not a black and white issue. Too many elements are in play.
That's all Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Gino, one can't deny the US has done major crappy stuff ( Contras, anyone? ), It's just that your argument is too absolutist. Many nations 'back' questional regimes, and those regimes may have a hand in getting people of yet another nation killed. It's a sick, dirty game- I wish it were different, but it's not.
Japan tried to take over the world with Germany, and failed. Is the world their enemy now?
I can agree with you that the US has made a LOT of enemies, and continues to do so to this day, but it's not a black and white issue. Too many elements are in play.
That's all Chrisisall
Sure, it is a complicated issue. But it is coming to the point where everyone will be forced to take sides.
There must be some reason be all the crappy things your country does, I'm no conspiracy nut but I do make the assumption that your leaders are not incompetent and do have SOME type of endgame agenda in mind.
If your coming invasion of Iran is successful, and you hold on to Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait you will control a huge chunk of the worlds energy supply. With Afganistan, you control the best route to market for SW Asian oil, as well as who knows what is underneath them. You keep pushing Venezuela, with your previous misaventures in mind who knows what you are up to there....... and prices keep going up
My guess is the goal is to deprive the emerging economys of China, India, etc of oil so they don't become more of a threat to your slumping economy. This could also be a threat to the EU, or Japan if trade issue, etc heat up.
As I have said before, the countries opposing your Iraq invasion, had nothing to do with supporting Saddam, it was more nobody wanted you to "install" a government that you owned. That is why the allaince stopped the war in 1991, that is why they didn't join in today.
It is a pattern of action which has been followed for sometime, now if my scenario is correct..... how can the world a)stand by and allow it, or b) help cut their own throats
We banded together to fight the threat of military domination by Germany and Japan sixty years ago, perhaps it another ten years we will band together to fight the threat of economic domination by the United States. This is not a good road, it is not black and white. But if your not an American, you find that your mind gets made up everytime you read the damn news.
When my eloquence escapes you
My logic ties you up and rapes you
http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/the_police/de_do_do_do_de_da_da_da.h
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Quote:Is France, Germany and Russia actively trying to “kill off” Americans?
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
To begin, I ask again... what was your answer to that question ?
This question is important because it points out the absurdity of your argument. France, Germany and Russia do what they do because they have agendas and interests that are separate from the US, and this sometimes puts them at odds with the US. But to say they are trying to “kill off” Americans is simply ridiculous. Much like the argument that you make that the US is trying to “kill off” other countries is ridiculous. But the real problem is that while you are willing to use this kind of absurd language to describe the US, you are unwilling to use it to describe countries other then the US which are doing to same thing.
Now you want to claim that the US “provid[ed] arms and instructors to Iraq during its war of aggression against Iran.” Which is true, but it suffers from the same kind of distortion, because less then 0.5% of the Hussein’s arsenal came for the US, which is basically nil. Most of Hussein’s arsenal was purchased from Russia/USSR and China. In fact, the top three arms dealers to Hussein’s Iraq were Russia/USSR, China and France. Now one can argue that that 0.5% of Hussein’s arsenal that came from the US is 0.5% too much, but one cannot make absurd statements about the US “trying to kill off” certain countries because of these arms deals and not make those same comments about other countries that have sold as much as ~200 times more weapons to Iraq.
If you like conspiracies so much, here’s one for you:
The top three biggest arms dealers to Iraq are also permanent UN Security Council member-states who adamantly opposed the coalition invasion of Iraq: Russia, China and France. Coincidence? I won’t even mention that these countries also had the largest oil vouchers in the Oil-for-Food program, and billions of dollars of oil-capital in Iraq.
Quote:Are you sure about that?
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
There must be some reason be all the crappy things your country does, I'm no conspiracy nut but. . .
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Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.
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All nations have, at one time or another, done crappy stuff. At our start, we pretty much wiped out Native Amercians and kept slaves. (And these actions continue to haunt us.)
However, over the past 60 years or so, the USA has run roughshod over many more nations than any other nation including the Soviet Union or China. Not talking about right or wrong here... it's all wrong... but the chances are, when you make so many enemies, sooner or later one or more of them will bite you in the *ss.
Why do you think that so many Central and South American countries have recently formed an anti-USA alliance? It's because our attention is fully engaged in the Middle East, and they slipped the leash as soon as they could. We created and/ or supported corruption and dictatorships in Brazil, Chile, Argentina, Nicaragua, Colombia, Honduras, Venezuela, Mexico, S Korea, Phillipines, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Uzbekistan, Ethiopia, Somalia, Zimbabwe, S Vietnam, the Congo, Cambodia...
It would have been better for us if these countries experienced an overall rise in living standards as a result of our meddling, but what happened is that a few people (the direct recipients of our aid and loans) became fabuluously wealthy while most people became poorer. Resentment? YOU BET!
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Quote:
Originally posted by lynchaj:Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Sure, it is a complicated issue. But it is coming to the point where everyone will be forced to take sides.
Who do you think the "sides" really are?
Which side are you going to choose?
I know what side I am on.
Andrew Lynch
I think I have already chosen, likely the other as I think it will be the US and everybody else
unless of course I am wrong and we are'nt really going down that road. I suppose there is always some ( slight ) hope we will change course.
When my eloquence escapes you
My logic ties you up and rapes you
http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/the_police/de_do_do_do_de_da_da_da.h
tml
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