Someone's Been Reading This Board Too Long
POSTED BY: HKCavalier
UPDATED: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 06:18
VIEWED: 7792
PAGE 4 of 8
Quote:I don’t think that this woman’s opinion had much to do with what the US had or had not done. At one point she referred to US support for Hussein’s Iraq in the 80’s, but when I pointed out that her own country was a strong supporter of Iraq, she didn’t seem to think that was very bad. There was something she believed that the US was responsible for, which actually the US had nothing to do with. I don’t remember exactly what that was; I just remember thinking how strange it was that she would attribute that to the US. I don’t remember all the conversion, it was a long time ago, but I don’t think she was dumb; she just didn’t have very lucid arguments for her hatred of Americans. Of course I’m not sure that there are any lucid arguments for wanting to kill people like dogs. Odds are, she was just a fruit.
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
That's a fascinating and nasty story, Finn. Most Americans don't know what it's like to be hated because they happen to fall into a category. 'Course, other Americans do.
I really think it's hard for us as Americans to understand what our absolute power looks like from the other side. We're nice folks, why are they all so scared?
Additionally, Americans think that as long as the good things we do outnumber the bad things we've done at the end of the day, we should remain beloved by all. But it doesn't work that way. The fella we just beat up doesn't care how much money we donate to charities each year. No amount of goodness outweighs the badness except in our own miserable psyches. The badness just is. The only way to make up for the badness is to repair it and stop doing it. Otherwise, folks just see us as two-faced. AND the greatest military power on Earth.
I just thought I would share an interesting anecdote on anti-Americanism.
-------------
Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I'm sorry, Finn, I just kept talking after I'd made my point about your french lady. I suspect that she was afraid of us. I was supposing it might have something to do with our military dominance in the world. If someone has the power to utterly destroy you, you might be afraid, even if they've only ever been nice, you see? What she hates and fears is our power. Although, I agree with you, no matter what she's upset about, killing us all like dogs is pretty effed up.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
No. Eh-eh. Not logic. It won't work when applied politically.
Like Logic... Try this site
http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/mackay/goodbad/Combatant.html
The politics of applying the same arguements that North Vietnam held towards American prisoners during that war ( to great outrage in your country ) to prisoners being held by you today ( to lukewarm support ) is REALLY ironic.
Its no wonder Senator McCain is one of the few who speaks out over this issue:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002341676_gitmocrx2
0.html
Quite possibly The " man of honor in a den of thieves "
just to work a Firefly quote in.
" Looking for a place to happen
Making stops along the way "
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
In other words, responding to a fearful situation not with indifference or attempted-martyrdom, but with positive, realistic, and genuinely beneficial actions, and also with healing and positive goals.
I have a serious question for President Rue that gets back to the lack of realism at the heart of the "liberal imagination." At first glance, "What would you do?" isn't all that hard for a well-informed person like you to answer. I remember back when I was in high school in the Model United Nations we'd come up with all kinds of eligant solutions to the world's problems.
The problem is that "the world's problems" are not static or necessarily visible at first glance. As I saw/see it, the central problem in this country after 9/11 was the rage and hunger for vengence of the average citizen. Without that rage, Bush's plans would not have gotten off the ground. We'd have reacted to his plans as the rest of the world did and the Democrats in congress would have felt that and stood up to Bush, the media would have exploded with Bush's fall in opinion polls, etc. But that didn't happen, because America wanted blood.
So, President Rue, what would you have done to deal with the country's rage? Without the war, I can imagine an unprecidented spike in hate crimes, Muslim Americans lynched in the streets, maybe a new virulent nationalist movement, domestic terrorism on the rise, etc. You see where I'm going with this? Merely having a sensible humanitarian in the White House wouldn't be enough. What would you have done to heal the wounds to our nation's psyche after 9/11?
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Not Rue but here goes...
For most Americans, 9-11 was an unpredictable and unexplainable horror. The immediate American reaction was shock and fear. Then we banded together to help each other: blood donations- donations of all kinds- soared. The desire for vengeance was prolly nascent, but it was fanned by "dead or alive" rhetoric to give us a false sense of control (for purposes we would never agree with). My point is that the desire for vengeance was, to some extent, manufactured. I mean, look at how we all got behind the spurious notion to invade Panama -and what kind of danger did Panama represent to us?
I don't think it is necessary to dissipate the rampaging, undirected bloodlust in the American psyche because it doesn't exist. By keeping the focus narrowly on the actual perpetrators and pounding the snot out of them, whatever need we have for control would have been exorcised. And we could have focused our attention on literally healing our wounds, both phsyical and psychic, by extending the outpouring of generosity and care that marked our initial response to 9-11. And we could have used the opportunity for us to learn what it feels like to be a victim and to learn to identify with victims all over the world, instead of becoming the bootheel of dominance.
BTW- As a basis for my ideas on vengeance, there are four possible endocrine reactions to fear and danger: flight, fight, befriend, and tend. Bush pushed the "fight" button over and over. But you could also see the "flight" reaction taking place: we had to be reminded to do our patriotic duty, stop hiding in our houses and go out shopping? And the help we all gave each other was part of the "befriend and tend".
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:I don't see it that way. The very first reaction was shock. The second, fear. Fear is one of the emotions that can generate anger/rage (frustration is the other). But it doesn't have to go that way. Address the fear, and the rage will generally not be an issue. (There is a certain percentage of Americans already primed by feelings of entitlement that will respond to threat with anger/rage that can't be addressed by addressing the fear, however.) And then there will be a sense of loss.
the rage and hunger for vengence of the average citizen
What I saw was Bush deliberately stoking rage, and step by step seeing how far it could be taken. Perhaps you remember that he progressed from holding up bin Laden as the demon - at first to be 'brought to justice' but later to be taken DEAD OR ALIVE !, and expanding on to al Qaeda, the Taliban, Afghanistan, and ultimately to anyone, anywhere who was, if not with Bush, with the terrorists.
This was not spontaneuosly generated in the American public, it was stoked.
Imagine a different approach. The set up:
many people are shocked*
and later, afraid
and, still later experiencing loss.
What could be done/said to address the national psyche?
Flights grounded. Borders closed. The public informed. So far, so good. Nothing generates fear like silence, uncertainty and the sense that nothing is being done.
Give a speech, but after addressing the shock and horror, put it in perspective: "The US has experienced attacks on home soil in times past - Pearl Harbor was a day of infamy for our country. And rest assured the perpetrators of today's heinous attack will be found and brought to justice. But history teaches us America is strong. Shaken to its core, it survives adversity and ultimately thrives. This magnificent country ..." etc
Each day document the work of rescuers in NYC, put out news clips of what is being done to restore function (to Wall Street or air travel for example), assure ppl that you are in contact with governments around the globe to identify the attackers, immediately start an investigation on how it happened, organize ways for ppl to get involved in the recovery if they are so inclined (but don't focus too heavily on it at first, as that could be for many simply another dose of fear), and so on.
Anyway, this is the 'crisis mode' approach I would use.
Recognizing that different people were affected to different levels, another step is to simply restore the normal background of everyday insitutional activity (including commercial activity) as quickly as possible, and upfront addressing the need for heightened security. "Attacks were carried out by a few men, mere men carrying box-cutters. If these few men had been stopped individually or as a group, these attacks would not have succeeded. Effective safety lies in responding immediately to these events. We conclude all institutions should hire additional security ...." etc
I see this as carrying through to the beginnings of recovery.
Anyway, I have more to say, but much to do. I'll try to get back to this later.
many people are shocked*
*But not all. I have to refer to SignyM's comment that there were some who paid attention to the national and international terrorist attacks in other countries - France, Spain, Britain, Russia - that had been going on for literally decades, and who actually remembered the original terrorist attack on the Twin Towers just a few short years before.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
@Rue:
Well, if people can't get you to run for prez down there, can we lure you to Canada to run for Prime Minister? You'll get free health care 
----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:I am curious about these statements and would like you to expound on them. But if you can't expound on them b/c, for example, they are so clear to you you can't say it any better, perhaps you could answer some questions to make them clear to me.
The US is special and is unprecedented in history. Much of the world sees this and just cannot stand it. It is the basis for much of the anti-american sentiment we see.
What specifically makes the US special? When did it achieve that status? Who hates the US for that status? How long has it been hated for that status? What is that hatred based on?
Thanks.
Rue
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by lynchaj:
President Clinton was big time using covert operations against AQ camps and even had a TLAM shootout with one base camp (and a CW/WMD factory in Sudan).
Do you mean the pharmaceutical plant the US levelled in Sudan ?
There was international verification that it was a pharmaceutical plant.
Yet another great example of bad intell, leading to dumb actions causing more distrust and hatred of the US overseas
more links
http://www.doublestandards.org/sudan.html
more about the aftermath
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/336375.stm
a nice overview
http://www.salon.com/news/1998/09/23news.html
" Looking for a place to happen
Making stops along the way "
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by lynchaj:
I personally believe that the US is special among the nations of man... Something worth protecting for the benefit of all humanity...The US is special and is unprecedented in history.
"Beware the beast man, for he is the Devil's harbinger.."
Andrew, common now, you really are starting to sound like Dr. Zaius from Planet Of The Apes. Only you're bestowing a devine special-ness on the US instead of Apes.
Puhleeeez Chrisisall
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME