Someone's Been Reading This Board Too Long

POSTED BY: HKCavalier
UPDATED: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 06:18
VIEWED: 7792
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HKCAVALIER

Monday, June 20, 2005 4:34 PM

That would be me. Last night it happened. I had a dream where all I was doing was reading this board. I was reading a new thread started by Geezer as it turns out--well, not the real Geezer, of course, but an entity I will henceforth refer to as Dream Geezer. It was actually a pretty interesting thread, so...I thought I'd do my best to reproduce what Dream Geezer wrote, see if it sparks any interesting discussion in waking life. I can't remember the subject heading but the body of DG's post went a little something...like this (Cue the music: "Ooh, Dreeeeeeeeeeeam Geezer, I believe you can get me through the ni-ight..."):

Quote:
...I wanted to understand why the left believes what it believes. So I've gone back and read every post by SignyM and HKCavelier that I could find and what I've discovered is that the left seems to have a highly nuanced understanding of our actions post 9/11, but no appreciation for the need to take action. None. Zero. Zip. It's as if they woke up from a coma three years ago and freaked. "What are we doing in Iraq? How can we be killing women and children? We've become evil and it's George Bush's fault!" We on the right said, "Remember Gulf War I? Remember U.N. resolution 1441? Remember Saddam Hussein?" And their response boils down to this: Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. We have to stop it right now or the world as we know it will come to an end!

Hrm. It brings me back to Christ's admonition to "turn the other cheek." I've never, ever understood that. It lies at the center of Christian teaching, but it makes no sense except as a recipe for getting yourself crucified. And yet the Left seems to want to see it applied to foreign policy. I suppose "turn the other cheek" is the ultimate moral high ground for them. But is that all the left is after? A clear conscience? Do they simply wish to go to their graves knowing that they're better than everyone else, i.e: the rest of us who must live in this world and deal with the likes of Saddam Hussein?

Well. My apologies to the real Geezer. When so much content from a dream survives the trip back to waking life, I've learned that it's important for me to try to bridge the two worlds by applying the dream content to reality as much as I can. I find DG's post pretty fascinating actually, but I'll hold my personal reactions until a few others have posted (he said, hopefully)

Edited to add: it occures to me that many people may not have the same faith in dreams as I do and might be confused by my post. I'm not posting this as a joke, or to put words in the mouth of Geezer or anyone else. I had a dream is all (it's not often that I remember actual words and sentences from my dreams and to remember two whole paragraphs is very rare--I think it's happened twice in my life). I thought the content of my dream might interest folks.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

SIGMANUNKI

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 2:59 AM

Wow. There are a few people that have stated that they need to stay way from the site for various reasons (or at least not as much). Perhaps you should consider a little break as well? Maybe?

Seriously though, what DG wrote really spells out what I consider some of the serious problems with this whole situation.

This includes but is not limited to:

1) People putting words in other peoples mouths.
2) MASSIVE hyperbole.
3) "Faith" being used in these arguments for/against war, etc... again.
4) The inability for all sides to actually read and understand what the other wrote (99.999...% of the time at least). Re: 1
5) Any confusion about what the other side is saying results in 1 & 2 and sometimes 3 instead of actually admitting it and asking a question.

etc

Basically, people (in general) keep talking at eachother and not with eachother. Yet they think that somehow things will get done this way.

Anyone else think that the situation generated by the above is stupid beyond belief? I mean, we have all left the playground, right?

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

GINOBIFFARONI

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 3:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

Seriously though, what DG wrote really spells out what I consider some of the serious problems with this whole situation.

This includes but is not limited to:

1) People putting words in other peoples mouths.
2) MASSIVE hyperbole.
3) "Faith" being used in these arguments for/against war, etc... again.
4) The inability for all sides to actually read and understand what the other wrote (99.999...% of the time at least). Re: 1
5) Any confusion about what the other side is saying results in 1 & 2 and sometimes 3 instead of actually admitting it and asking a question.

I think these problems would apply to at least 85% of posts on the real world board... and actually you could even extend that to real world in general. If you read this list again, but think of the Bush government for example the context of your point changes to something both frightning and hillarious at the same time.

" Anyone else think that the situation generated by the above is stupid beyond belief? I mean, we have all left the playground, right? "

Well, yes. That is for the most part what all the debate is about. Both sides are so polarized that no minds will be changed. Debate, particularly in this fashion is pointless, mostly people are just trolling for a fight. I suppose that makes this board a playground of sorts doesn't it.

" Remember.... The first rule about Fight Club is :" You don't talk about Fight Club". The second rule about Fight Club is :" You don't talk about Fight Club".

SERGEANTX

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 4:13 AM

I think 'Dream Geezer' is a troll and should be banned from the board.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

SERGEANTX

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 4:24 AM

... also, I just don't buy this notion that people minds aren't swayed by these discussions. Mine certainly has been. Not to mention the lurkers (masochistic though they may be) who might appreciate some of the info that's been brought to light.

These kinds of discussions can be a road toward real understanding, though I admit they are often not. Both 'sides' would do well to quit looking at it as a competition, or cheerleading, and start focusing on the real questions and concerns of their 'opponents'.

There are real reasons why people support Bush's policies, and there are real reasons why others distrust them. Failing to address these and at least try to see things from the other person's perspective is missing a real opportunity for communication. I think that's what 'Dream Geezer' was trying to tell HK.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

SIGMANUNKI

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 2:17 PM

@GinoBiffaroni:
Agreed. But, I'd raise that percent.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

SIGMANUNKI

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 2:31 PM

I'm tired (just woke up) and am having problems wording things in a non-offensive way. Please note that nothing is intended as insulting.

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
... also, I just don't buy this notion that people minds aren't swayed by these discussions. Mine certainly has been. Not to mention the lurkers (masochistic though they may be) who might appreciate some of the info that's been brought to light.

I agree that some people may be swayed and you sure seem to be evidence to that assursion.

BUT, given the common discourse on a thread in RWE discussions forum, I'd rather disagree that you can make the leap from you (one person) to anything significant (many people). I'd think that you are the exception to the rule instead of the rule itself.

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:

These kinds of discussions can be a road toward real understanding, though I admit they are often not. Both 'sides' would do well to quit looking at it as a competition, or cheerleading, and start focusing on the real questions and concerns of their 'opponents'.

I'd say 'mostly not' (as in rule) rather than 'often not.'

I agree with the 2nd statment.

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:

There are real reasons why people support Bush's policies, and there are real reasons why others distrust them. Failing to address these and at least try to see things from the other person's perspective is missing a real opportunity for communication. I think that's what 'Dream Geezer' was trying to tell HK.

I don't doubt that there are real reasons why people support GW, otherwise he'd have exactly zero support.

I think what it comes down is that the 'opposition' is rather thinking that those reasons are more non-reasons. <- right now, I just woke up and can't seem to find the words to properly word an example. I'll be back later to do that.

\begin{EDIT}
Well, I can't think of what I was thinking of when I originally wrote this, but basically reasons for war ie WMD which was apparently solid intel even though the rest of the world seriously doubted that. And now I've heard Powell say with my own ears, that they were wrong about it.

This makes the Dem, say that now there is proof that GW is untrustworthy, etc, but the Rep, say that it's great that he stuck to his guns, etc.
\end{EDIT}

I'm getting some coffee now.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

HKCAVALIER

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 5:04 PM

Hey, everyone! Welcome to my peculiar experiment in manifestation. I'm very interested in where this thread is going.

Not since I was a teenager has debating made a lot of sense to me, actually. It's mostly intellectual bullying and sophistry. Sometimes if some blowhard makes a particularly illogical statement, I can't help letting him know that somebody is on to his game. But the rest of the time, I come here to share my ideas and to read the thoughts and beliefs of others.

Sometimes I'll join a discussion so I can clarify my own thoughts. As an artist, I find these boards invaluable as a staging ground for a lot of my themes. When I first came to this board I was a major "thread killer;" if I posted on a thread, more'n likely no one else would ever touch it again. As an artist, it's not only important to tell your story, but to tell it in a way that engages people.

I've gotten a lot of real information from visiting the RWED. And compared with other BB's this one is hella civil (if anyone knows of a BB where such diverse views are aired and discussed with greater candor and respectfulness, please, let me know). Sure there's a large quotient of snarky, but the folks that really drive the discussions are not only informed and articulate but are able to take a little flack without getting huffy and going home. Something about being a Browncoat tends to make people, at least intellectually, scrappy. We tend not to get our ego's bruised too easily.

As to the post from my dream, I like its frankness and its challenge. I think it's fair to say that the liberal imagination can be a little out of step with how folks go about things in reality. My primary reaction to what's going on in this country today, frankly, is shock and dismay. I'm apalled by what's going on and I don't think people are ready to change. Not a very politically viable position.

After 9/11 there was a huge desire for vengence in this country. Just HUGE! A lot of liberal intellectual "leaders" (Susan Sontag comes to mind, for instance) seemed to direct their vengeful feelings inward at this country and our leaders, which was very, very upsetting to a lot of people in those early days (I personally find that infinitely preferable to projecting the hate outward against thousands of innocent brownskinned people who have the misfortune of having been born in a dictatorship that we no longer support, but that's just me). But the rage, the vengefulness must be dealt with. Liberalism teaches us to "rise above" it, but sometimes our negative feelings are just too strong to be put aside "for the greater good." Meanwhile, the savvy neo-cons openly exploited the rage in this country to get a lot done.

The part about "turning the other cheek" is also interesting. Just google "why turn the other cheek" and see how many absolutely contradictory interpretations people have come up with. It's a real hot-point in our culture. For better or worse, Christianity must be addressed if we are to bring our country back to some kind of sanity. And again, the "moral high ground" isn't very interesting to people who are furious and vengeful. People on the left need to find a way to speak to the rage and fury in our country that is convincing, rather than condescending.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 9:49 PM

Hi, HK. Just a thought from a guy who took psych classes in college.
DG is you exploring the possibility that you sometimes lean too far left in your analysis of the world situation. So basically, DG is remindin' you that the edge is not an ideal location.
In a nutshell.
A full and detailed analysis will require a cash deposit.

Chrisisall, PHDuh

HKCAVALIER

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 10:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Hi, HK. Just a thought from a guy who took psych classes in college.
DG is you exploring the possibility that you sometimes lean too far left in your analysis of the world situation. So basically, DG is remindin' you that the edge is not an ideal location.
In a nutshell.
A full and detailed analysis will require a cash deposit.

Chrisisall, PHDuh

Of course! No question about it (we obviously took some of the same classes

). DG's arguments have a kind of surgical precision in attacking certain of my cherished notions. DG is a visitor from my shadow and as such very welcome. I brought him out to meet the rest of you because I want to show him the respect he deserves. I try to make use of input like DG's here as much as possible to keep me sane. I don't really disagree with DG as his arguments apply to myself. I don't have all the answers. I'm a huge fan of paradox and inversion, particularly as it applies to me and my views. It makes me a whole lot more tolerant of the divisiveness of this forum, for instance, than a lot of people here.

I'm often tempted to actually go post by post on some of the more notorious threads in the RWED to see how they break down into meaningful discussion vs. nasty digression and name calling. I don't think I'd come anywhere near Gino's 85% garbage to discourse ratio. I know a little viciousness goes a long way and can really overshadow a thread full of thoughtful posts.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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