War crimes in Afghanistan

POSTED BY: Daikath
UPDATED: Thursday, June 16, 2005 23:00
VIEWED: 4240
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OPUS

Wednesday, June 15, 2005 9:28 PM

I have a couple problems with what you quoted, and I watched the two examples ...the time code on my player doesn't show the same time code as yours, but I didn't see your quotes anywhere else in the tape.

Quote:
Watch the video and on 0:08:20 you will hear a US soldier blatantly saying that anyone who works with the Taliban will be killed without a trial or anything.

This is a war, if they're helping the Taliban they're a part of it, end of story. To expect to hold criminal trials in a war zone is ridiculous.

Quote:
On 0:08:40 you will hear a Us soldier speaking in english that they don't take prisoners but rather shoot them

Your transcription of that leaves something to be desired. The REPORTER ASKS the soldier if he'd RATHER kill them or take them prisoners. The soldier doesn't say they don't take prisoners, he just says what he'd like to do. NOT that, that is what they do.
Your taking one soldiers opinion and feelings and portraying them as what he's actually doing.
I'd like to take a baseball bat to my neighbors head for playing music full blast at three in the morning, but I don't do it.

CONNORFLYNN

Wednesday, June 15, 2005 9:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Daikath:
Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:
Yep..your right Signa:

Just asking before I comment on your entire post and digging through the Geneva convention for the entire thing. But was your long post just aimed at Sigma or also at me?

What's your point Daikath? Are you going to educate me?

Dig away at the Geneva Conventions all you want. I'm well aware of what the Geneva conventions are, what they say and who they apply to. They Only apply to American troops and anyone else is free to do whatever they wish.

Noone has to follow the rules of war except The Americans.

I'll keep slamming your ass down every time I see a BLATANT attempt to ridicule US or Coalition troops and all the preaching about the Geneva Conventions doesn't make a difference.

I'll ask you once:

Are you purposefully trying to say that all American and Coalition troops are War Criminals?

It's a simple yes or no question.

Because , I can't see any other reason for this thread. It's inflammatory garbage meant to antagonize and spread bullshit Anti-American sentiment. Manipulating what someone says to fit your hatemongering agenda is propaganda and rhetoric.

Reporter says "What would your rather do? Kill em or take prisoners?" Yep, rather and actually killing are the same thing.

Frankly, I'm sick of it. I'm sick of all the shitheels who feel they can get away with it, because of some self righteous judgemental attitude they feel they are entitled to or their inability to speak English.

PS: Gee, what was the reason you couldn't work in the US ? Sigma? Is it sour grapes you have?

DAIKATH

Wednesday, June 15, 2005 10:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Opus:
I have a couple problems with what you quoted, and I watched the two examples ...the time code on my player doesn't show the same time code as yours, but I didn't see your quotes anywhere else in the tape.

Quote:
Watch the video and on 0:08:20 you will hear a US soldier blatantly saying that anyone who works with the Taliban will be killed without a trial or anything.

The seconds each began at the start of the footage showing it. But if you are anything like me you won't have a lot of patience sitting through a halfhour current events program in a language you don't understand. I tried to get the stream to maybe capture it but it wouldt let me at it.

Anyways should it be mis understood, in the 8th minute on the 20th second the US soldier begins to speak his threat about killing anyone who aids the Taliban.

Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:
What's your point Daikath? Are you going to educate me?

Not really, I just assumed you would think that the US operated under Geneva conventions. However we are now past that and you both seemed to get past this point.

I apologise if I have offended you though. This isn;t a personal attack and I try to be unbiased. I however saw some things in this tv programme I think were pretty big news to me and wanted a debate.

Quote:
Originally posted by Opus:
This is a war, if they're helping the Taliban they're a part of it, end of story. To expect to hold criminal trials in a war zone is ridiculous.

Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:
Noone has to follow the rules of war except The Americans.

I combined these two arguments because they seem to be pretty much about the same thing.

When I spend two years in a hummer getting shot at I would also react the exact same way. No doubt about it.

But in my opinion this doesn't make the actual act any better. It still is what it is. A violation of the code of conduct we as a society made after we saw what terrible things could happen in modern warfare in WWI.

The reasoning behind the act of not just killing poeple who are suspected of helping the enemy without proper evidence (if at all and not just a prison sentence) is that you will do it to a lot of innocent poeple. I think you and I both agree on the reasoning here. I just dont think it is worth the price for what strategical advantage might be gained.

Quote:
Originally posted by Opus:
Your transcription of that leaves something to be desired. The REPORTER ASKS the soldier if he'd RATHER kill them or take them prisoners. The soldier doesn't say they don't take prisoners, he just says what he'd like to do. NOT that, that is what they do.

Heh, embarrasing for me that I dind't see that. I agree and retract this piece of evidence. I gues I was just still kind of suprised by the earlier blatant threat. I still however want it mentioned that this doesnt diminish the other arguments.

Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:
I'll keep slamming your ass down every time I see a BLATANT attempt to ridicule US or Coalition troops and all the preaching about the Geneva Conventions doesn't make a difference.

Again if I apologise if I have offended you, it was not my intent to give this impression or start that kind of debate.

Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:
Are you purposefully trying to say that all American and Coalition troops are War Criminals?

No. I am just saying that some of the methods used in that video cross my personal line of what is acceptible in warfare. The US justified in the war in Afghanistan (I honestly don't know if the war in Iraq was justified and am not talking about WMD, but it is a rather long and complicated story with no relevance).

If it is worth anything my country supported the war in Iraq politically and had troops stations in Almutanna afterwards for the reconstruction, we now also have special forces in Afghanistan (the reason that current even

OPUS

Wednesday, June 15, 2005 11:52 PM

I honestly believe, in general, people have been lulled into believing it's possible to have a 'civilized' war.
The allies in WW2 did things, that by today's standards you, and others would consider to be war crimes. When that war ended, the US and I believe England had small teams of hand picked death squads, who went around with lists of people who they executed.
In the pacific I heard one soldier talk how they didn't take prisoners unless an officer was around.
There are lines that shouldn't be crossed, I agree. But war is dirty under the best of circumstances.
Regarding the quote from the first soldier, I'd like to hear the rest of his speech to the village or the people, not just that snippet they played. To completely judge it.

CONNORFLYNN

Thursday, June 16, 2005 9:26 AM

Daikath-

My point was that what the soldiers said wasn't a violation of the Geneva Conventions.

Yes, Our Soldiers do their best (Shit does happen on occasion and they pay the price) to follow to the "T", if not better, the Geneva Conventions.

The problem is that people are so willing to completely misinterpret and jump the gun. The soldier in my opinion said "We are here to fight and kill the Taliban. If you fight alongside or aid them we will kill you too". That doesn't say "we won't accept surrenders or take prisoners". That is a typical statement in war. Very concise and to the point, because of the need to have the interpreter relay the "IMPORTANCE" of the message and to be perfectly clear. The other soldier was asked "What would you rather do with the Taliban? Kill them or take them prisoner?", there's a BIG difference between "rather" and "will". Your post declared that They WOULD kill them all and WOULDN'T take prisoners. That is not the case. If that WAS the case, we wouldn't ahve seen the nice nice way of putting little plastic handcuffs on.

Thats why I call it manipulation and jumping the gun. I apologize for getting so bold, because I just realized English isn't your first language. Also this is a damn touchy subject for me.

SIGMANUNKI

Thursday, June 16, 2005 3:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:
Yep..your right Signa:

They are all evil war criminals. Every bomb that drops in an armed conflict is a war crime.. what the f*** was I thinking.

You're right, Spinning/editing every newscast or article to portray ALL American and Coalition soldiers as War criminals isn't propaganda. NEVER showing or doing a newscast on the good that is being done in Iraq and Afghanistan by Coalition forces is being unbiased and uncensored.

Its all untainted unwashed uncleansed unbiased.

I have 3 words for you:

"Here's your sign"

Anyone who has ever been in a war knows, war is brutal on the body and the mind. Noone who actually fights in it ever wins and sure, crimes will be committed, how can they not. To CONSTANTLY say The Troops should be held to higher standard is a F****** joke. Let me stick your ass in a humvee for 2 years and have people shoot at you every day inside and out,
>snip<

This is where I stopped reading your crap.

1) Your hyperbole is a joke. I never said anything about every bomb, etc. Read the

first post.

2) Barely anything has gone right over there. Sure the Taliban is gone, but not too far away. What, 50000 Taliban at start of war and 40000 end up in hiding. All of 2 cities in Afganistan are held my coalition forces. Woot, F***** success.

3) I said nothing about being totally unbiased. I said:
"""
Just because they don't present it in every article doesn't mean that that balance doesn't exist. It's just elsewhere. That's called keeping the article on topic.
"""

Because you said:
"""
BLATANT MANIPULATION of the truth
...
bullshit propaganda
"""
Which is so far from actual truth it isn't funny.

4) Your "justification" of war crimes is pathetic. Of course from time to time there will be incidents. We are human, we err.

BUT WHEN IT IS POLICY THAT IS BEYOND WRONG. IT IS DISCUSTING AND MUST BE DEALT WITH.

You want an example of people getting shot at that don't freak out: Canada, Japan, Germany... shall I go on?

Your

country needs to grow the

up. Deal with it.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

SIGMANUNKI

Thursday, June 16, 2005 3:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Opus:

To expect to hold criminal trials in a war zone is ridiculous.

Not ridiculous, civilized. All civilized nations are expected to uphold such things. If fact, all nations, period, are expect to uphold such things. Especially those that signed the Geneva Convention.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

SIGMANUNKI

Thursday, June 16, 2005 4:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:

PS: Gee, what was the reason you couldn't work in the US ? Sigma? Is it sour grapes you have?

As I stated, it was a visa issue.

The details are, wife gets J-1 and as a spouse I get a J-2. Thus I couldn't work/go to shool/do anything without filling out a pile of paperwork. (EDIT: And there was the minimum 3 month waiting period as well.)

Also, to process to get a student visa so that I could attend a US university was ridiculous. Not to mention to ridiculous tuition fees (ie cheapest in the area where I was staying was $15000 USD and that was actually raised before I would've attended).

So, I came back home to continue my studies. Quite frankly, I came back for other societal reasons as well and was very happy to do so.

No sour grapes.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

OPUS

Thursday, June 16, 2005 11:00 PM

Quote:
Not ridiculous, civilized. All civilized nations are expected to uphold such things. If fact, all nations, period, are expect to uphold such things. Especially those that signed the Geneva Convention.

In the context this case, it is ridiculous. Don't go after the enemy or those helping them until you haul them in, collect witnesses and hold a trial. Then only then can you shoot.
Ridiculous.
Secondly, if they're not uniformed and helping the enemy the Geneva convention does nothing for them.

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