UN Inspectors Told To Leave Iraq Immediately

POSTED BY: Haken
UPDATED: Monday, May 10, 2004 04:48
VIEWED: 25999
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WULFHAWK

Wednesday, March 19, 2003 3:15 AM

*picking out the splinters*

Hawhaw! Heck, I warned ya'll when the gloves came off. I think ya'll did just fine, standin up for yourselves like that. Get a few years on ya, learn to listen to the quietest voice instead of the loudest, ya'll might be able to tangle with me.

tanstaafl

NICOLA

Wednesday, March 19, 2003 6:20 AM

Wow! I went away for a day, and I came back and this thread was just smokin'!

Wulfhawk: The knowledge that you want us to listen to the quietest voice, instead of the loudest is heartening, although I have to point out, that to suggest that people's opinions are ill-informed because of their age is somewhat... non-productive.

At some point during this active day, I was asked to explain where I got my information re: Faked information and nuclear weapons.

To clarify ... my original statement was:

The proof that Iraq was acquiring nuclear weapons was faked. Who by? Good question.

Randy answered this and I have posted his response as follows:

After all this time, we are still left with the two questions: Why Iraq? And why now? One of the continuously changing rationales for war has been that Saddam had a nuclear weapons program, or was within a few years of having nuclear weapons. That is simply untrue.

Mohamed ElBaradei, director general of the International Atomic Energy Agency, told the U.N. Security Council that letters purportedly showing that Iraq tried to buy uranium from Niger were fabricated.

"There is no evidence of resumed nuclear activities," said ElBaradei. The much-discussed high-strength aluminum tubes supposedly bought by Iraq for use as centrifuges also have been accounted for. The IAEA reports having found extensive records on the tubes, which were for 81mm conventional rockets.

Thanks Randy. Still don't know who faked the information... I am not a big conspiricy theorist but it does beg the question.

Is this war about oil? Partially, but not mostly. (I mean everything, ultimately is about scarce resources, but I don't think the dominating factor in this instance is oil.) For information sake, the US gets the vast majority of its oil from Venezuela and Canada.

It really is about the fact that Iraq is weak - easy pickens as it were. (Although I can't believe I am saying that about peoples lives...). Regime change (not disarmament) is the goal of this administration.

As to what we should do now?

I think the die is cast. I think the die was cast last August. It disturbs me that so many well-informed people are against this war, and yet...here we are.

Is this war about global domination? No. Not really. I do believe that most Western governments would love to have a healthy, thriving, democratic government installed in the Middle East. Not just so that they could buy cheap oil from Iraq, but also to sell lots of consumer goods to them - isn't that what capitalism is all about?

What disturbs me most about this war, is the shift in foreign policy that it indicates. The US had a policy of not engaging in preemptive war. The link between Al Qaeda and Iraq is unproven, which makes this war with Iraq just that - a preemptive war.

In Babylon 5, Sheridan said "My father taught me never to start a fight, but by God, when you are in one you finish it." (Not exact quote - forgive me.) That seemed to me to be an estimable attitude, and one I thought was intrinsically American.

I still stand by my position that Saddam has to go. I just don't think that the case has been made to go now.

"Whether it happens in a hundred years or a thousand years or a million years, eventually our Sun will grow cold and go out. When that happens, it won't just take us. It'll take Marilyn Monroe and Lao-Tzu and Einstein and Morobuto and Buddy Holly and Aristophenes .. and all of this .. all of this was for nothing unless we go to the stars." — J. Michael Straczynski

WULFHAWK

Wednesday, March 19, 2003 1:35 PM

Nic, let me ask again...where did you get the info? Did you aquire the Nigerian documents, learn Nigerian, study the fakery?

No

You have taken the word of someone else, just like the rest of us. That don't make you any brighter or righter. You are likely as far from the original source of the intelligence as all of us.

We, all of us, are built to believe. The most important quiet voice is the one within, the one that whispers Occam's Razor to me when I get carried away, the one that quotes "...however unlikely, what remains MUST be the truth."

I question you because you speak, but remember we ALL have our little voices.

tanstaafl

RANDY

Wednesday, March 19, 2003 4:08 PM

It seems that no one on this board wants war. The divisive issue is whether it is justified or not.

Nic, thanks for the quote but unfortunately, that wasn't me. Wish it were because I agree 100%.

And Wulf, although your sarcasm is thinly veiled, I agree with you too as far as taking the word of someone else. Gosh, something we agree on...other than Firefly, of course. We are all forming our opinions based on knowledge we've received and yet have no way of verifying its veracity. Whether it is propaganda from the government or propaganda from the peace activists, none of us are privy to the truth. And therefore, we need to listen to each person and RESPECT their opinion.

"...morbid and creepifying, I got no problem with" - Mal

HKCAVALIER

Wednesday, March 19, 2003 5:10 PM

While I await the wonderful news that Joss has found a home for Firefly, I'd like to add a couple thoughts here that I've yet to see posted.

One major factor in this war for which I don't need any documentation (just a little common sense and a willingness to "go there"), is racism. Oil or no, we would not be going to war right now if Saddam Hussein were white. You know it would be funny if it weren't plain evil, but there's a very obvious link between the 9/11 terrorists and Iraq: skin color.

There's a lot of noise being made about the stupidity and denial of those of us who are against the war, but opposing this war seems pretty sensible to me if for no other reason than it is too expensive. Expensive in lives, expensive in money we don't have, expensive in loss of a global community, expensive in astronomical risk. In the face of these obvious reasons to find other solutions to our "Mideast Problem" this war starts to look pretty stupid and full of denial to me. Some day, as Americans and human beings, we are going to have to respect our limitations. Which is not to say that we are not the richest most powerful nation on the planet, only that we are not God and we are not (or should not let ourselves become) the benevolent dictator of the world.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

WULFHAWK

Wednesday, March 19, 2003 5:36 PM

Randy, I don't veil my sarcasm; what fun would that be? No, the fact is, facts are hard to come by, and however loudly or longwindedly some folk decry there own point of view, it's unlikely to be fact.

I don't argue with fact, but anyone says I have to believe the facts they a'tellin me better be prepared to have them disputed.

As my final post on this thread, to the folks that felt I was tryin to run 'em off, or tryin to shut 'em up, or just ridin' roughshod over 'em:

There ain't no such thing as a free lunch

All evil needs to prosper is for good to do nothing.

What? You were expecting an apology? Haw

RANDY

Wednesday, March 19, 2003 5:52 PM

Merl, don't EVER let anyone silence you. Speak out. Your beliefs and opinions are just as important. And by being civil and respectful, you rise above. It takes strength to stand strong especially when you're the minority. That is the only way to facilitate change. And though you may not be able to change someone's mind, it is important that you let the world know that you don't agree. Silence comes across as tacit approval. I participate in the peace rallys not because I think we can change the government's collective mind at this point but to show them and the world that there are Americans who do NOT approve of their actions.

Besides, don't leave me here alone with the wolves...

And your English is excellent, by the way.

"...morbid and creepifying, I got no problem with" - Mal

GINOBIFFARONI

Wednesday, March 19, 2003 6:48 PM

I guess the thing that really bothers me is the way Saddams past actions are being used to justify this war.
Yeah the guy is a tyrannt, yes he has killed thousand. No I would not shed a tear if he took two to the back of the head.
But if his crime is murder, and I would say it is, aren't the people who handed him the weapons and supported him accomplices?
Hell, the laws in some states find you guilty if you stand back and watch a crime going down if you don't do anything...
Ugly situation, Saddam wasn't alone in making it

Wheres the responsibilty?

Perhaps international credibility would be restored if some Americans went on trial at the Hague as well...

Does that seem right to you?

MERLINDREA

Wednesday, March 19, 2003 7:03 PM

First of all: Thanks to everybody here for asking me not to be silent. Makes me all warm and fuzzy inside . Seriously, big thanks to all on the board for being civil over this matter which calls out for strong opinions.

Second, I'm not sure if this made the news in the US, but I found it interesting:

Several Iraqian families now living in Belgium have started a law suit against George Bush senior, based on crimes against humanity. In the first golf war, the US Army had bombed living quarters, resulting in the dead of 403 civilists.
They also want to sue Cheney, Powell and Schwarzkopf.

I can give you the source of that article, but its in German: http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,240813,00.html.

No wonder the US government does not want an international court

Merl

KAYTHRYN

Wednesday, March 19, 2003 7:17 PM

Grrrr... Randy, we're not all wolves. Well a few of us are, but there are a lot of sweet little kitties here too.

And to everyone else out there- I still want to hear what you think we should do instead of going to war. I haven't heard anything reasonable yet. Come on, I want to know what you think.

-------------------------------------
Jayne: Hey, I didn't fight in no war. Best of luck, though.

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