UN Inspectors Told To Leave Iraq Immediately
POSTED BY: Haken
UPDATED: Monday, May 10, 2004 04:48
VIEWED: 25999
PAGE 4 of 11
Merl, I agree. Wulf's tone was a bit inappropriate for this discussion board. Though I admire his passion in his convictions, as this board states, "please be civil when responding to others." As for me, I'm always open to hearing the opposing argument because it makes me think and question my own position. After all, none of us knows everything and we can only learn when we are stimulated.
I too, believe strongly in Democracy. And perhaps that is why this issue bothers me so. I feel Democracy is being threatened. The people are being misled, misrepresented and their voices silenced. It all began with the Supreme Court determining who would become president. Is this democracy? Here in California, a couple of senators stated publicly that although their constituents oppose the war, they still voted for war. Is this democracy? Helen Thomas, because she is openly critical of the administration, is summarily snubbed and silenced. Is this democracy? The government manipulates the terror warning level to instill fear and paranoia. Is this democracy?
As ethically incorrect as it is, I have to agree with Channain on someone taking out Saddam. How nice and neat and justified. But there is still the sticky question of installing a functional infrastructure. And I don't think oil is the underlying impetus of this. I think it is merely a reward that will be used to finance the war. There are many more issues at hand that could be driving the push for war, some political, some economic and some probably purely megalomaniacal.
Deutschland ist richtig! Kein Krieg! Ich denke manchmal dass diese Welt verrueckt ist. (excuse my bad German).
"...morbid and creepifying, I got no problem with" - Mal
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Quote:
Originally posted by Randy:
Deutschland ist richtig! Kein Krieg! Ich denke manchmal dass diese Welt verrueckt ist. (excuse my bad German).
Randy, your German is perfect! And yes, I wish, too, that a secret organization just goes into Iraq, kills Saddam and his ugly sons and thats it - and then somebody makes a nice action movie out of it with clearly identifiable good guys and bad guys...
Merl
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Quote:
Originally posted by Channain:
I do keep thinking there's some seruptitious political issue here that we're missing. oil is just way too obvious.
If I remember correctly, one of the things Bush Jr. wanted to accomplished when he first took office was to get rid of Saddam and finish the job Bush Sr. started. So it's obviously not just about the oil. I wouldn't go as far as calling it a vendetta, but I'm sure many in the Middle East will probably see it that way. And I sometimes wonder if 9/11 would have happened if Bush wasn't the president. Something to think about.
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Lets all remember we're all friends here-- United in our love for Firefly. Are we remembering? I don't see you remembering... Okay good.
Alright, I've still yet to hear a different, logical course of action for those who are opposed to the war.
Quote:
Originally posted by MERLINDREA:
But back to your question: Instead of putting in sick amounts of money into the military, this money could be used to increase the life standard in those countries. As an example: Greece and Turkey are what you could call 'natural' enemies. They have a long past of very cruel wars, Greece was occupied by Turkey for over 500 years. They hate each other. A couple of years ago, they had a crisis again, with warships already being sent to the middle sea etc. But they didn't start it. Why? Because their main income is tourism. If they start a war, they can forget the money coming in. So the economic interest was greater than their hate.
Bottomline: If people are fed and see a future for their kids, its not that easy to make them into terrorists...
No but it’s harder to make them into ambitionless malnourished terrorists. Ba da bing! Okay that was stupid, moving on.
I see the Greece and turkey tourism bit, but you can’t buy everyone. We don’t have enough money to offer Iraq and say, “Uh…please give this money to your people Saddam. Um… we want to be friends again. Yeah, I’m sure you’re not going to take this money and make more high tech expensive weapons or buy yourself a new fancy car because you are a kind dictator, a loving dictator, you care for your people, don’t worry about it. Take it, please we want you to have it. One condition, remember last time we gave you money, and guns and training? Yeah, please don‘t do like last time and use it against us? Can you do that? Great. Kiss, kiss, ta, ta.”
Yeah, that will go over real well. Let’s keep Saddam in power now that we know he hates everything about the US, and give him money.
Another point. If we give enormous amounts of money to every country that threatens us, what does that tell the rest of the world. “Send terrorist to kill our civilians and win a prize!” ??? Cause I don’t like that game.
Oh, another point. Regarding your bottomline- not many of the people in Iraq are going to see a future for their children if Saddam is allowed to remain in control. Maybe I’m wrong-
“Arbitrary arrests and killings are commonplace. Between three and four million Iraqis, about 15 percent of the population, have fled their homeland rather than live under Saddam Hussein's regime.”
Only three or four million people have fled? Oh, that can’t all be because of the oppressive dictator we know and love as Saddam? They must just not like the weather. Here’s another snip bit about his favorite types of torture. Yes, he has favorites, as if he has so many he can pick-
“They included eye-gouging, piercing of hands with an electric drill, suspension from a ceiling, electric shock, rape and other forms of sexual abuse, beating of the soles of feet, mock executions, extinguishing cigarettes on the body and acid baths.”
Acid baths??? Hun, even if we did give them money, and even if he did give it to his people for food- excuse me while I laugh- I think that the acid baths are still making it sound like a pretty crappy deal for the people who live there.
Web page for whole story on acid baths, etc…
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/12/02/sproject.irq.dossier/
Iraq and neighboring regions are rich with the money they make off of oil, and at the same time their civilians are living in poverty. I don’t think that any more money we give them will help. We need to remove Saddam from power, while --and we are doing this now-- we give civilians food and medicine. After Saddam is booted out, we’ve promised to stay and help rebuild. I know it will take time, but it is better than, “I’m sorry people of Iraq. You were born into a land rich with oil. You should all be prospering and enjoying the warm weather but you got stuck with an over oppressive dictator who
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Ok, guys, let's tango one last time.
Merl, Nic, and Randy...that's ok, you have the right to have and speak your opinions...but DON'T think for a minute I'm gonna accept your rhetoric as fact, or massive posts as credible. Didn't Saddam infodump the inspectors just that way?
Merl, why in the heck would you think the war is about oil? We have tons of oil here, and more friends with tons of oil. It doesn't help your credibility to parrot silly theories. And you'd like to fire our defense department, disband the military, and give the money to the needy over there? I'm sure Saddam would agree to spend the money on his needy subjects. You'd trust him, right?
Nic, I'm kinda fuzzy on the faked evidence thing? You wanna put a little more fact where your rhetoric is? Didn't Colin Powell cite the links between Bin Laden and Saddam Hussien as fact? In front of the UN? Didn't the CIA report it in the first place, just couldn't confirm it seven ways from Sunday?
Randy, let me put this in small words for you . . . no reasonable person doubts SH has WMD capability, no reasonable person doubts SH is seeking further WMD capability. And believe this or not, North Korea, Iran, and other tyrants around the globe are watching us closely on this. Can you guess why? No? Never mind.
Oh, and, let me drag up a quote:
But is anybody talking about the 22 million Iraqis? How many of them will have to die in this high-tech war? And how many of them would rather live under Saddam than die by an american soldier?
Are you saying here that you expect our, the US, soldiers to target civilians? Sounds like it. Are you saying we, the US, don't care about the Iraqi people? Sounds like it.
You guys are crying about the poor, innocent Iraqi civilians that MIGHT die, when thousands die at Saddam's hand, when thousands of us die needlessly, RIGHT HERE. What makes the POSSIBLE death of Iraqi civilians more worthy of your notice? Hmm?
Now, I can think of some fine reasons not to go to war, some personal, some national, but that's not the point. Saddam Hussein is a bad man, but that's not a good reason to go to war.
Saddam wants to build an empire, like Hitler. Saddam has contacts with Bin Laden. Saddam has developed terrible weapons, and is not averse to using them. Saddam is himself a terrorist, willing to attack innocents to further his mad desires. Do we dare wait further? Wait until Saddam works out a way to strike back at us, the US, with smallpox, or anthrax, or ricine, or nukes? Wait until what, guys? We've waited ten years. He is still in power, still bankrupting his country to build back his military, still intent on building an empire. Waiting will not disarm him, waiting will not disuade him, waiting will not save the Iraqi people from him. Waiting will only strengthen him, will only further endanger his neighbors, his continent, and us.
And hey, maybe a little example for the other nuts out there might not be a bad thing. 8)
Ok guys, I promise not to be so crochety in the future. *puts his gloves back on*
there ain't no such thing as a free lunch
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Okay, let's address the salient points raised by others;
1) It's about the oil.
a. Okay, take a look around you. Where ever you are, whatever you can see, whatever you are wearing, touching, is in your pockets or purse, all of it was moved by a transportation system absolutely dependent on oil. Check your hypocrisy meter before you begin criticizing war for oil. All wars have at their heart an economic justification.
b. America is a very wealthy nation. If we wanted oil, and only oil, we could just BUY it from Iraq.
2) Unjustified war.
a. The UN has not rescinded the original resolution authorizing force of arms against Iraq. Hussein has lied, cheated, and manipulated the UN for 12 years. I think we have exhausted diplomatic efforts.
b. Neville Chamberlain went to extraordinary lengths to appease Hitler with diplomatic measures. He promised "Peace in our time" right after stabbing the Czechoslovakians in the back with the pen that signed the treaty allowing Nazi Germany to annex the Sudetenland. Three years later a war that would kill 40 million people began. If you can't see the similarities I don't know what to say. That should be justification enough.
3) I think Bush is an idiot.
a. Maybe, it's a free country and you are entitled to your opinion. If you're an American, please feel free to express your freedom of speech in an appropriate manner. The fact remains, he is the leader acknowledged by all branches of the government as the person we put in office. Right or wrong, agree or disagree.
b. Get out next November and vote Gorram it! %50 turnout last election was far better than most years, but it still means the voting boxes were only half full. We can do better. If you don't vote, you don't have the right to complain.
The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Haken:
And I sometimes wonder if 9/11 would have happened if Bush wasn't the president. Something to think about.
Of course not, if Gore would have become President the Democrats would have paid off the terrorist with another 7 million dollers. Billery Clinton paid terrorists, so they wouldn't attack the U.S., with tax payers money during his stint as President. Where did that money go, to fund more terrorist activities, go figure.
Regardless on your position on the war the most important thing is to support the Soldiers going there. We don't want a repeat of the 60's protests. Soldiers are held by contract to do their jobs, it's not their fault they're going over to fight for liberty. You know if they refuse it's called "Dereliction of Duty" they get tried and convicted and they go to MILITARY jail, most of the time a to Levenworth. Military jails aren't fun.
Second everyone in the U.S. has the right to freedom of assembly and peaceful protest, what I find funny is when peaceful protests turn violent. I thouht they were protesting for peace? Weird huh?
Again, Russia is only opposed to this because they lent a certain number of weapons to Saddam last time, (those weapons we were confiscating and blowing up during Desert Storm were Soviet made weapons.) and probably even this time too, they have yet to be paid in full. If Saddam is removed the new Iraq doesn't have to acknowledge this debt. Another thing to note is not to trust Putin, the man ran the friggin' KGB before its demise.
Still complainin', Have you people even read a US governemt book? the President has very very little control over the economy, everything he does has to be approved through Congress. He is aloud to conduct peacekeeping operations for 120 days. But all-in-all the President is just for foreign affairs. The true people you should be mad at is Congressmen and the Senetors. And Alan Greenspan who directly influences the economy from the PRIVATELY funded Federal Reserve, it's not even a part of our Government. Ya know who owns it? the World Bank and what did the World Bank do to USSR at the end of the Cold War, hum? It called in all of the Soviet's debts, economically crushing them and thus the fall of the Iron Curtain. Got a little off topic there. Do you know how many oil providers were based in the US a short few years ago? More than eight, now- there are closer to four, why? Merger's, company mergers. What is happening with the gasoline prices is what is called price gouging, and it is illegal. The shipments of petrolium from all over the world inculding the middle east has not been atered enough to justify the high prices.
I'm with you Wolfhawk!
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I agree with Kaythryn that throwing money there won't work. However, I disagree that war is the only option. As I mentioned above, many "experts" feel that containment is an alternative. By this, yes, force is used as a threat, but diplomacy is used to monitor. Perhaps like weapons inspections, there could be a monitoring of the government's actions. I don't have the answer but to immediately jump to war is just an easy way out.
And yes, this is an immediate jump. Surely everyone noticed that since the Bush administration bypassed the security council, their motto is not longer disarmament but is now "regime change". That has been their agenda all along but they tried to manipulate the security council under the guise of disarmament. It was all a political game (ain't it all?). Does this not bother anyone?
Again, there is the "terrorist argument". Keep in mind that Iraq has never directly threatened us. And their links to Al Qaeda have never been proven and the government has admitted as much. So there is not much behind that argument. Here's the key...Don't you wonder WHY terrorists are attacking the U.S.? I don't understand how people can NOT ask themselves these questions. By proceeding with so much hubris and bravado, we are ensuring further and more destructive acts of terror. They are doing to us what we are doing to them. It is naive to think that ousting Saddam will end terrorism. He is a tiny cog in a giant machine. We need to think on a higher level, not just react.
And, lest you forget, the U.S. tortures its prisoners to extract information. Who's monitoring us?
"...morbid and creepifying, I got no problem with" - Mal
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
2) Unjustified war.
a. The UN has not rescinded the original resolution authorizing force of arms against Iraq. Hussein has lied, cheated, and manipulated the UN for 12 years. I think we have exhausted diplomatic efforts.
b. Neville Chamberlain went to extraordinary lengths to appease Hitler with diplomatic measures. He promised "Peace in our time" right after stabbing the Czechoslovakians in the back with the pen that signed the treaty allowing Nazi Germany to annex the Sudetenland. Three years later a war that would kill 40 million people began. If you can't see the similarities I don't know what to say. That should be justification enough.
Alright I just had to respond to this one. You're right, the people who say "give peace a chance" must be brain dead, hey where were you the past twelve years? Don't get me wrong I don't want to go to war, either.
And I like the Hitler comparasion. Saddam has studdied Hitler did you know that? He did it while in prision for a failed assasaination attempt. Hell the guy was butchering the Kurds in northern Iraq before we stepped in during Desert Storm.
Quote:
If you don't vote, you don't have the right to complain.
You don't like legistation? You don't vote, it doesn't change. It's time to stop letting the House of Represenatives make you decisions for you, it's time to get those kick-back taking Congressmen and Senetors out and the American Dream back in. Nothing changes if you sit on your hands people.
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Okay, so you guys want to know why I believe this war is about oil?
Okay, first of all: yes, Saddam tortures and kills his own people. BUT HE DID SO FOR YEARS AND YEARS! Why does the US Government suddenly discover its tender feelings for the Iraqis? And what about the people in North Korea? And many african countries with dictators? What about Iran? etc. etc. As somebody pointed out already, other countries are much more threatening to the world.
Second: there is no prove - and thats the reason why Bush did not manage to convince the UN - that Iraq is linked to 9/11.
Third: Iraq is one of the countries with the biggest oil sources. I'm not sure if I have the numbers right, but I believe Iraq controls 25% of the complete OPEC resources. Now, what would do that to the OPEC if America could destroy their monopol??? As somebody else pointed out, oil is in everything, so who controls oil, has the power.
The first golf war was about oil - or do you think the US Government then would have cared one bit that Iraq tried to take over Kuwait? And to say: we have tons of oil and our friends have tons of oil is just bs, sorry. Why do you think Bush wanted to open new Oil sources in Alaska? Because with the rate this country is burning its resources, it will not be long before we are in trouble!
Just remember what happened in Jugoslawia - killing and torturing of thousands of people, mass rape etc. Did the US rush in there like it did in the Golf war? No - why? Hmmm, let me think - no strategic interest for the US! No oil, nothing, just human people suffering. Did that war even make the news here?
Again, I would love to believe that the US government is going in to help the Iraqis. But all the human-rights arguments just lead me to the question: why now? why Iraq? And why does a country who does not agree to an international court believe it can play world government???
One other comment. Wulf, I believe, had asked, if I believe US soldiers would purposefully kill women and children. No, I don't think so. But in a war innocents are killed - everybody who thinks different is very naive (to say it polite). So if I accept war, I accept the death of innocent people. If I am a soldier, I accept that there is a possibility I will kill innocent people, especially with such a high-tech war where you don't even see your enemy up close.
Merl
PS: And why do I have the distinct feeling that the pro-war people here are the more rude and aggressive fraction? Must be all those testosterones... 
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