WMD in Iraq? Nah, nothing to see here, move along...

POSTED BY: lynchaj
UPDATED: Sunday, March 8, 2026 22:49
VIEWED: 7691
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GINOBIFFARONI

Saturday, June 4, 2005 6:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Jimmy the C... hate to say it but HE caused much of your current mess by supplying money and arms to terrorists, which helped to provoke the Soviet invasion of Afganistan. Face it, they are all full of crap

Jimmy had no buisness being in the White House. As much as I like him as a man, he was used, misled, and disgarded. He didn't know how to play the 'game'. He was led into doing a lot of questionable things.
Yes, they all are full of crap. And Regan wasn't like waking up from a nightmare, it was just trading one for another, albeit his nightmare felt better, for a time.

No more posting on political threads for me Chrisisall

That would be too bad, I have enjoyed your perspective in some of these threads.

Carter may have been a honorable man back then, hard to think of a succesfull naval officer that wouldn't be. His recent actions would lead me to believe you are right... but I can only comment on what happened from a position of hindsight, and unfortunately history doesn't judge many very well. Surprising where the dominoes fall.

" Looking for a place to happen
Making stops along the way "

GEEZER

Saturday, June 4, 2005 11:57 PM

I can't help but see this as:

"No, Saddam didn't have 100 lb of gunpowder. He just had 75 lb of saltpeter, 12 lb of sulfur, and 13 lb of charcoal. Nothing to worry about."

"Keep the Shiny side up"

SERGEANTX

Sunday, June 5, 2005 12:24 AM

I think what bothers everyone so much about the whole WMD thing was that it was just an excuse to invade Iraq. Whether it was a fantasy or a real threat isn't the issue. The neo-cons who drove this one home have been open and above board about their aims in the middle-east since the mid nineties. It was the president, or his advisors, that thought it prudent to find other "reasons" for the invasion, thus the shifting excuse-of-the-week to sell their cause.

What I don't get is why we aren't talking about the open and documented policies of the neo-cons and where they might lead us. There are lots of resources about their goals, but it's probably best to start at the source:

http://www.newamericancentury.org/

I know many of you have probably already read this stuff. I just brought it up because it seems to make the whole WMD thing a moot debate. Iraq was invaded as part of a much larger strategy. When it came down to it, the WMD thing was just a sales gimmick, whether true or not.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

STAGGERLY

Sunday, June 5, 2005 1:00 AM

I think this argument could be tailored to suit the Polish September Campaign with very few alterations. It's fascinating and surreal.

SIGNYM

Sunday, June 5, 2005 6:24 AM

Quote:
First, I am not your personal research service. You are going to have to do some of your own research. I did, I do, and you should to.

WTF??? I followed and examined every link you posted and all of their secondary links nothing showed. I took your links in good faith and they came up empty. Why did you run all of us around like that? So, for the last time- where did you get the reference to the "excess" pesticide production? I think we all deserve a VALID reference this time

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Why did Saddam have any suspicious Dual Use facilities at all?

In your opinion, what are "suspcious" dual use facilites versus "non-suspicious" dual use facilities?

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With his people literally starving to death, why all the rockets? why all the motors? why the liquid rocket fuel processing facilities for SCUDs that presumably he didn't even own?

Saddam was allowed conventional weapons for national defense, provided they didn't have a range longer than about 90 miles (I think Rue referred to this earlier). "Rockets" are not necessarily Scuds, which are intermediate-range (600 mile) rockets. As far as what Kay and Duelfer said about the possible presence of Scud, Kay was convinced that Saddam has stashed a dozen or so Scuds BEFORE the OIF because some defectors claimed that Saddam had reatiend the ability to crate Scud fuel. kay and later Duelfer followed up on these allegations. I think the Duelfer report says it best: The Iraqi Survey Group (ISG) has uncovered no evidence Iraq retained Scud-variant missiles, and debriefings of Iraqi officials in addition to some documentation suggests that Iraq did not retain such missiles after 1991.

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Why all the spare parts smuggling?

I dunno -WHAT spare parts?

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Why all those mysterious biological facilities when better products were available essentially free under OFF?

Same question- WHAT "mysterious" facilities? The best quote is again from the Duelfer report: In practical terms, with the destruction of the Al Hakam facility, Iraq abandoned its ambitions to obtain advanced BW weapons quickly. ISG found no direct evidence that Iraq, after 1996, had plans for a BW program or was conducting BW-specific work for military purposes. Indeed, from the mid-1990s, despite evidence of continuing interest in nuclear and chemical weapons, there appears to be a complete absence of discussion or even interest in BW at the Presidential level.

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Why the nuclear centrifuge?

I know for a fact there was no nuclear centrifuge. And, if you are going to point to those aluminum tubes that Bush made such a fuss about- they were probably designated for rocket engines (which Saddam was allowed). All nuclear experts agreed that the tubes were completely unsuitable for nuclear fuel purification. I again quote the Duelfer report: Saddam Husay ended the nuclear program in 1991 following the Gulf war. ISG found no evidence to suggest efforts to restart the program.

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Why all the pointless research when his own people didn't have basic medical access?

Because he was a paranoid dictator? BTW- I might add that many USA citizens don't have basic medical care either, and yet we are shoveling money into "Son of Star Wars"

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Why all the suspicious "pesticide" and unnecessary "agricultural" facilities

I refuse to even consider this until you bring up a link that works.

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Fourth, Saddam could have easily gotten rid of the sanctions by just coming clean and simply cooperating.

Rue, David Kay and Duelfer figured this out. I'll post the answer later.

SERGEANTX

Sunday, June 5, 2005 6:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by lynchaj:
Please, not more paranoid conspiracy theories about neo-cons (read, Jewish Conservatives such as Wolfowitz, Perle, et al). It is truly lunatic fringe material.

All this is is another thinktank in Washington DC of which there are several both liberal and conservative.

I suppose next you are going to tell us about the goofy Dominionist Theory.

Andrew Lynch

You seem to be misunderstanding me. The link was to the Project for the New American Century, which has been openly acknowledged as the source for much of what has become Bush policy. There's no conspiracy, it's all open and above board. Go read it. I'm not even saying they're wrong, just that they do have a clear agenda. It seems worth taking a look at. Wouldn't you say?

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

CHRISISALL

Sunday, June 5, 2005 1:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by lynchaj:
August 4 1990 if I recall correctly. I was in grad school and was literally sick when I heard Saddam rolled on Kuwait City because I knew (as most of the US government did and does) that the Saudi oil fields were essentially defenseless against the Iraqis.

Listen, boy, *he plays the age card* we had intelligence that something like that might happen, and real-time satelite images that showed it as it was in progress. We could have stopped it in it's tracks, but chose not to.
Gee, now why would we do that?
I guess the answer to that is that we, umm..didn't really have that kind of, uh, intelligence, and, umm... the satelite systems didn't work that month, I mean...CLOUDS! There were clouds that month! Yeah, that's it! And infra red hadn't been developed yet...

Welcome to yet another FANTASY thread, where governments never lie to the people, and the right thing is always done by hawks Chrisisall

GEEZER

Sunday, June 5, 2005 2:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Welcome to yet another FANTASY thread, where governments never lie to the people, and the right thing is always done by hawks Chrisisall

As opposed to the other FANTASY threads, where the government always lies to the people, and the neo-cons, the Illuminati, the IJC, the Carlyle Group, the Tri-lateral Commission, and the Stupid White Men are all out to screw you over, just because they can?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

STAGGERLY

Sunday, June 5, 2005 3:49 PM

Sorry Lynch, I wasn't trying to Godwin ya. Just food for thought.

SIGNYM

Sunday, June 5, 2005 4:16 PM

I will provide links to the remainder of the info- fair is fair, since I require you to provide yours.

But are you now saying now that Saddam should not have had ANY dual-use equipment? How would they chlorinate their water, then? Chlorine was embargoed. How did they transport their oil? They needed those suspicious pumps, pipes, and valves. I provided several other examples of critical dual-use, embargoed equipment and chemicals and I could provide many more. Would you not allow those?

I already addressed the missile issue, using google to dig up the old suspicions of Scud missiles and the Duelfer report and UN reports to dtermine how those susicions were resolved. I'm not going to keep repeating myself.

Nuclear centrifuge, your link, my emphasis:
The parts, with accompanying plans, were unearthed by Iraqi scientist Mahdi Obeidi who had hidden them under a rose bush in his garden 12 years ago under orders from Qusay Hussein.

Let's see... Not a working centrifuge, not an active program. How many parts? Well... how big is a nuclear centrifuge, and how many parts can you hide under "a" rose bush?

Pesticides and potential chemical weapons- from your link, my emphasis:
Based on these investigations, ISG assesses that the Tariq Company did not provide Iraq with a break-out capability for nerve agent production. Pesticide (Formerly Fallujah III): Instead of synthesizing precursors and pesticides on site and in Iraq, Tariq imported concentrated commercial pesticides for formulation, repackaging, and local distribution.

Pretty much what you said they should do

Chlorine/Phenol Plant (Formerly Fallujah II): Leading up to OIF, this plant was not fully operational, and was unlikely to have provided any basic chemicals such as chlorine or phenol to an Iraqi CW effort. Because of technical problems, the plant could not even supply local markets with its products.. One of Tariq’s labs, the Baghdad Research Laboratory, was closed at an unknown date, according to interviews with Huwaysh, and he stated its employees did not participate in any CW-related research while it was open. Other ISG interviews indicate that the lab may have engaged in defensive nerve agent detector research.

Lynch, both you and I quoted the Duelfer report multiple times. The report is quite clear: Not only were there no stockpiles of WMD ready to be deployed, there were not even active programs that could have produced WMD. Why do you keep ignoring the findings? Are you suggesting that the Bush administration is lying and covering up the presence of massive WMD through the Duelfer report?

EDITED TO ADD:

Quote:
Is your hatred so great that you take the word of a brutal despot regime over freely elected US and UK leaders?

No, I take the word of David Kay, Charles Duelfer, and UNMOVIC.

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