Just wondering...
POSTED BY: everyworldspinnin
UPDATED: Friday, June 3, 2005 06:14
VIEWED: 19516
PAGE 3 of 12
christhecynic:
Heh-heh! Good getting 'stoned' with you, Old Testament School style!
So, New Testament style:
John 8:7
He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone...
or
Luke 6:36
Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
6:37
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven...
I need mercy and forgiveness. I can't withstand judgment against the standard of perfection. Heck, I don't even reckon I can be judged against my fellow humans, let alone Jesus' example.
Are you sure we can't just do politics? At some point, I suspect a 'Stepford Christian' will chime in saying, "Jesus was speaking metaphorically," or some such, because his judgmental pastor told him so verbatim, and the whole flock just fell into lock-step with a plastered-on grin. I believe Christ's every word. I'm a literalist. When He told parables -- making metaphors -- Jesus always prefaced them with a disclaimer. He challenged His disciples perceptions; but, He was pretty straight with everyone else.
Dangerously,
zoid
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Quote:
I believe Christ's every word.
You see, there is my difficulty with this line of reasoning. The Gospels (bearing in mind there are many more than the canonical 4) all say different things.
Let us take the last-words of Jesus as an example:
Matthew 27:46 & Mark 16:34, 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me'
Luke 23:46, 'Father, into your hands I commend my spirit'
John 19:30, 'It is finished'
Now, bearing in mind these are translations (how people read the Bible depends on which translation they read, each is different to the others, not to mention the original texts - of which there are many versions) how can they all be the last words of Jesus?
The Gospel-writers were telling their own version of events for their own reasons, hence they tell different stories. It is unlikely that any of them knew Jesus (one may have done - but it is unlikely) so they are working on rumours and whispers. It is impossible to know what Jesus said, only interpret what the Gospel writers claimed that he said.
Also, dangerously, perhaps even 'asking for it'
extremely dimensionally transcendental
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Emma:
I hear you. Depending on what version of the Bible one reads (King James, New King James, New International Version, Amplified Version, et cetera), there are subtle -- or not so subtle -- differences in the different translations. Some, like the late Reggie White for example, have gone so far as to learn the languages of the earliest texts. I haven't. I'm a King James Version guy.
But, I also don't cotton much to interpretations. In the KJV I grew up with, Jesus' utterances were writ in red. This makes 'strict adherence' to His words easier. However, my use of 'strict adherence' may itself be misinterpreted. What I mean is this: I try with all my might to live in strict adherence to His words; but, it is an attempt I fail at miserably. I look at females a little too appreciatively. I lose my temper and use profanity with little provocation. I sometimes say hurtful and unkind things to my loved ones... That's just the preamble. To make it short, I'm a shambling wreck of a cheap knockoff of Christ's example.
But, I'm still here battling, and I will be 'til I go into the great unknowable mystery that awaits every living creature. Because I have faith. Because I can feel it.
You can't, hmmm? I wish you did. I hope you may.
Respectfully,
zoid
P.S.
Yes, the OT contains many messages of tolerance and forgiveness. But when a Christian preacher wants to encourage intolerance for women, gays, persons who engage in alternative lifestyles -- and to punish them for it -- he cracks open the old book.
Tell you what, though. You're the Bible scholar. Find me an example of Jesus -- in his own words -- saying, "Kill the sinner. Keep the woman under your heel. Shun the outsider." Get back to me when you find one of those. Take as much time as you need. (NB: I do believe that a woman was His most trusted confidante, and that she was envied by some of Jesus' disciples. That He kissed her on the mouth not only further inflamed them, but may be indicative of an even deeper relationship.)
P.P.S.
Since someone else mentioned "Contact", one of my favorite exchanges from the movie was when Matthew was challenged by Jodie to prove the existence of God, he in reply asked Jodie if she loved her deceased father. She welled with emotion and said she certainly did; he softly replied, "Prove it." Sorry I can't find the direct quote.
_________________________________________________
"Sure as I know anything, I know this: I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDM'
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Try this lot for dubious statements, there are many more:
Matt. 11:12 From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and forceful people lay hold of it. (This literally means - particurly in Greek - that to enter the Kingdom of Heaven people need to act violently, see also Luke 16:16)
Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries someone else commits adultery, and the one who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery.
Jesus to 'the Jews' who accept him: John 8:44. You people are from your father the devil, and you want to do what your father desires.
Plus, I imagine that if someone today demonstrated against something they believed in (however good the cause) by throwing their strength about in the same way Jesus did with the money lenders most of us, would object and be disgusted. The turning over of the tables in the temple is one of Jesus' most famous acts and yet many people forget it is violent and would be completely unacceptable in today's society - as it was then.
Jesus is an ambigous character (don't get me wrong, I think he is great, true political revolutionary) who, in my opinion, needs to be understood within the context of the Gospel writers. I do not believe it is possible to take his words literally as though he said them because the Gospels are political documents and as such manipulate things for the advantage of the community they were written in/for.
Also, you say that you don't go for interpretations but you interpret Jesus. You choose what chapters and verses to remember and adhere to, you choose how you understand them. This in itself is an act of interpretation, just as you interpret posts on this board (adding your own 'voice', 'appearance', 'tone' to the writing) you do the same when you read the words of Jesus.
-------
As an aside, I find the New Revised Standard Version a more accurate translation than the KJV.
Here are two very useful websites:
http://www.bible.org/netbible2/
http://www.biblegateway.com/
extremely dimensionally transcendental
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everyworldspinnin wrote:
Quote:
Sitting out here on my deck dreading going back to work tommorow, I was just wondering, what do other FF/Serenity fans do for a living? Me, I'm a PC Tech. How bout you?
I'm a freelance cartoonist.
Presently I'm working on a two page comic strip that runs monthly until september.
It's kinda fun.
The
Somnambulist
www.cirqus.com
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Dang, almost forgot why I came to this thread for in the first place....
I am a Quality Control Laboratory Technition. 
I'll get back to the debate tomorrow. Right now I have lab tests to do....
----------------------------------------------
“It's a real burden being right so often.”
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Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
everyworldspinning:
I'm an air traffic controller. I sit in a tower all day trying -- to paraphrase whedonesque -- to convince pilots that they really don't wanna die on my shift. If only my customers and I shared that core value...
I've converted 3 of my 4 coworkers. Number 4's the boss, and I don't envision him sitting in the break room watching eps with the guys. But, I'm formulating a plan...
Vocationally,
zoid
Hmm, I wonder how much more people you could convert if you tell the pilots of the planes you are directing "I will give you a flight path and tell you where to land if you promise me to watch Firefly asap!"
OT:
I am a civil servant (hope this is the right term I remembered and not something offensive, although some people find civil servants offensive, hehe).
See you,
Gavida
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Excellent! Back to topic!
While I am a follower of Christ, but don't think of myself as a very good Christian, I mean no disrespect to those that what to debate religion. But I AM here because I am interested in the vocations of other Browncoats.
I myself am the chief navigator of an offshore petroleum research crew. We do seismic surveys in the Gulf of Mexico (and other places) to collect data for geophysicists to decide (guess) where to drill for the oil that ends up in the tanks of everyones cars. It is my job to convince the vessels involved in the survey to be in the right place at the right time in order for the survey to provide correct information. It's an interesting job that has taken me to many interesting places in the world. One nice thing about it is that the vessels have computer networks that allow me to place all the Firefly episodes on the server, for everyone to see! I have made many converts!
Rezleog
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Hey I live in fame, or go down in flames...
That's right, nothing can stop the US Air Force...
I was trained in 1993 to be a computer operator. I got divorced, and left the Air Force in 1997...For four years, I wandered the earth like Kaine in Kung-Fu...okay, I kinda went to college, and tried to survive, but I didn't do all that great at it...I got remarried in 2000, and we welcomed our first child in 2001. So, while I had worked for the postal service for three years, they offered no benefits to speak of. I had to leave and find insurance...And guess where I found it in abundance. That's right. Now, the truly funny thing about the Air Force is that once you leave, and try to come back, they don't like you anymore. So, my cushy computer job was taken away, and I was given an Aircraft Maintenance job...Fuels. I work on the fuel systems in the planes. I stop leaks...etc, etc. However, twice, after people found out how fast I could type, I was offered flight jobs...basically as a secretary. Hey, I don't mind, as long as my bosses realize that I'm not Maggie Gyllenhal.
Word.
Why did I tell you guys all that? I don't know...Oh wait, here's the answer...another sodium pentothal dart...right in the neck...
Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."
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Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
everyworldspinning:
I'm an air traffic controller. I sit in a tower all day trying -- to paraphrase whedonesque -- to convince pilots that they really don't wanna die on my shift.
Zoid good buddy.
I've travelled quite a fair bit in my time, and chances are I've wondered across your air space on more than one occaision.... and even if I haven't may I just say; thanks to you and your fellow controllers for bringing me down safely. I have a love/hate thing going on with air travel and it's easy to overlook the guys n' gals behind the scenes......So Cheers Bud.
The
Somnambulist
www.cirqus.com
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