Horse, Foot and Artillery Fanfic

POSTED BY: Hotpoint
UPDATED: Wednesday, August 2, 2006 17:58
VIEWED: 24261
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HOTPOINT

Wednesday, February 9, 2005 10:45 PM

Part I of the 'Horse, Foot and Artillery' Sequence now posted

Any thoughts? Any opinions? Any critiques?... is there anybody out there?

Any similarities between this thread and the ones I did for earlier series is purely coincidental

...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

HOTPOINT

Thursday, May 26, 2005 6:44 PM

Part II of the 'Horse, Foot and Artillery' Sequence now posted

Any thoughts? Any opinions? Any critiques?... is there anybody out there?

I promise not to leave it quite so long until the next chapter

...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

HOTPOINT

Friday, May 27, 2005 5:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by GunRunner:
Oh sorry about that. You said that the Indi ship was a Generation behind the Alliance ships and WWI ships were still a creditable naval unit in WWII if properly reequipped and deployed. (Examples: HMS Hood, HIJMS Kongo, HMS Royal Sovereign). I personally draw the generation line at the invention of the Guided Missile.

However if you compare the best US WWI Dreadnought Battleship (Probably Colorado Class) with the best US WWII Cruiser (Alaska class) the armor is slightly less in several areas:

13 1/2" Belt, 18" Turrets, 3 1/2" + 1 1/2" Decks, 16" Conning Tower (Colorado)
vs.
9" Belt, 12 4/5" Turrets, 1 2/5" +4" +5/8" Decks, 10 3/5" Conning Tower (Alaska)

Althogh Alaska had better deck armor (lesson probaly learned from Hood), The Guns are in favor of the Colorado 8 16’’ vs. 9 12’’. However Radar technology is the determining factor of any WWII surface engagement, look at Battle of Surigao Strait, US Radar firecontrol could hit at distances the Japanese couldn’t. It still boils down to the faster ship with more accurate guns agaisnt the slower ship with less accurate guns.

The Alaska was a battlecruiser rather than a cruiser (even the German Pocket Battleships only mounted 11 inch armament). Typical Cruiser armament for most WWII navies were 6 or 8 inch guns which meant they would have to get dangerously close to be a threat to the armour of a Dreadnought (by which time their better fire-control would be less of a factor).

...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

GUNRUNNER

Friday, May 27, 2005 7:30 PM

Alaska was not a battlecruiser it was in fact a “Large” Cruiser. The battlecruiser design was derived from battleships by reducing their armor to increase speed; the large cruiser was created by taking the cruiser design and adding armor and heavier guns. It was built for the same purpose (killing Cruisers) but the Large Cruiser was made more survivable at the expense of having lighter guns.

Anyways the more conventional cruiser had a more well rounded armament than a dreadnought typically carrying several mounts of torpedoes (considered by many naval tacticians of the time as the “main battery” of ships smaller than a battleship). Even the best WWI dreadnought has deck armor only equal to a WWII cruiser and WWII warships have guns capable of high angle fire, which can exploit this. A cruiser can engage with torpedoes and long-range fire against its deck then if they score sufficient hits they can close in an engage with all guns or back off and shadow until their forces have the advantage. If the dreadnought gets the advantage and closes in it will eat more of that salvo of torpedoes I was talking about.

Again we are dealing with a ship with great speed vs. one without, it becomes like Battle of the River Plate, the Cruiser engage or disngage when it wants to and the dreadnought can’t do anything about that. The Cruiser can shadow and show up forcing the Dreadnought to alter its plans, effectively killing it from an operational perspective.

Yes the Dreadnought can kill the Cruiser but it can’t hope to engage the cruiser, at least on its own terms.

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HOTPOINT

Friday, May 27, 2005 8:27 PM

Although "officially" Large Cruisers the Alaska Class are almost invariably referred to as being either a Battlecruiser or at least battlecruiser-like in that they were not armed or intended for the role usually given to Cruisers.

The Royal Navy Invincible Class VSTOL Carriers of today were officially called Cruisers too at first (Through-Deck Cruisers actually) but that didn't mean they were Cruisers.

I frankly doubt that a 6 or even 8 inch Cruiser would be able to stand up to a WWI Dreadnought in a gunfight. It would only need to land a small number of hits to really mess up the Cruiser and as for Torpedo runs you'd have to get unpleasantly close to use them effectively and they weren't very accurate or dependable.

As regards the notion of standing off and shadowing, the Cruiser could certainly do that but when you come right down to it the smaller ship can't actually stop the Dreadnought going somewhere it can just irritate the heck out of it.

You mention the Battle of the River Plate but the result of that engagement was more down to the Graf Spee making the error of letting not only Exeter with its 8 inchers but also Ajax and Achilles with their 6 inchers close enough to cause damage. If Captain Langsdorf had stayed clear he could have pounded the Cruisers to bits before they could get close enough to hurt him.

Actually the battle of the River Plate shows the difference in how much damage you can do with bigger guns. Several incoming shells actually bounced off the Graf-Spee whereas her 11 inchers really messed up the poor Exeter. I doubt that many WWII Cruisers would have stood up very well to even a couple of hits from a 14+inch weapon considering what a far less massive 11 inch hit could do to them.

Good discussion though

...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

GUNRUNNER

Friday, May 27, 2005 8:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hotpoint:
As regards the notion of standing off and shadowing, the Cruiser could certainly do that but when you come right down to it the smaller ship can't actually stop the Dreadnought going somewhere it can just irritate the heck out of it.

Well I wouldn't say it couldn’t stop the Dreadnought from going somewhere. There are incidents where constantly making your self known can force the enemy to do what you want. The submarine USS Seawolf SS-197 did just that to a convoy of Japanese merchant ships when she ran out of torpedoes. Seawolf would sneak in and exchange a few shells and slip away every time the target ship (An armed merchant ship) would try to head for safer waters. Eventually Seawolf forced the merchant ship towards another US submarine, which sunk her.

Also having a ship constantly trailed isn’t much of an effective unit, the ships of the trailing ship’s side know where she is and can avoid or engage when they want.

At The Battle of the River Plate the Graf Spee was out flanked by the British forcing her to divide its fire. Again we have to deal with faster ships vs. slower ships, any attempt to stay clear would have resulted in the faster Light Cruisers and Destroyers out flanking them again. The Graf Spee indeed caused significant damage to the British cruisers but it couldn’t get away from them.

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HOTPOINT

Friday, May 27, 2005 9:34 PM

Actually it would be truer to say that the Graf Spee flanked herself at the Battle of the River Plate. Apparently Langsdorf thought the ships he saw with Exeter were only Destroyers and believing they must be out there escorting a merchant convoy he went straight for the three of them intending to pound Exeter to pieces then deal with the little "Destroyers"... big mistake!

Anyway getting back to the subject at hand if you'd remember I was originally talking about an actual battle between the two types of vessel as a comparison between the Charybdis and the more modern but less heavily armed Alliance Cruisers so while I'd certainly say an Ally Cruiser could outrun the poor old Battlecruiser it wouldn't fair well in an actual scrap...

... it would just end up scrap

...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

GUNRUNNER

Friday, May 27, 2005 10:27 PM

Well I still think it still comes down to which side can bring the more advanced system in to battle and know how to use it. The Exocet Missile attacks and the Conqueror torpedo attack (talking about the boat it’s self not the weapon) in the Falklands for example.

Well anyways I look forward to Part III.

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NUMEROCINCUENTAUNO

Saturday, May 28, 2005 3:45 AM

Where is this fanfic posted? It sounds like something I should engage.

GUNRUNNER

Saturday, May 28, 2005 3:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by NumeroCincuentaUno:
Where is this fanfic posted? It sounds like something I should engage.

All of Hotpoints Fanfics:
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