We have very little time left as a democracy- the Patriot Act, open-ended weapon against democracy
POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Thursday, October 16, 2025 15:16
VIEWED: 18510
PAGE 14 of 21
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Originally posted by Geezer:
My right of privacy may be impinged upon if I'm suspected of supporting or belonging to a criminal organization, whether it be just plain crooks or terrorists.
Dang! I was with ya up to that part! What if I suspect you of being a 'witch terrorist' who conjurs up sentient firearms to spontaniously kill poodles and heads of state?
Suspicion should be backed up by evidence before infringing on your right of privacy. Like pictures of you at criminal meetings, your arrest at criminal operations, your dead body at criminal shoot outs, that sort of thing. All of this may be obtained without peeping into your home or tapping your phones.
Criminal Motel, criminals check in, but they don't check out Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
My right of privacy may be impinged upon if I'm suspected of supporting or belonging to a criminal organization, whether it be just plain crooks or terrorists.
Dang! I was with ya up to that part! What if I suspect you of being a 'witch terrorist' who conjurs up sentient firearms to spontaniously kill poodles and heads of state?
Suspicion should be backed up by evidence before infringing on your right of privacy. Like pictures of you at criminal meetings, your arrest at criminal operations, your dead body at criminal shoot outs, that sort of thing. All of this may be obtained without peeping into your home or tapping your phones.
Criminal Motel, criminals check in, but they don't check out Chrisisall
Suspicion in this case doesn't mean anyone's suspicion, but law enforcement judgement, backed up by enough evidence to either convince a judge to sign a warrant, or in the case of the Patriot Act, to stand up to a later review.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Actually Geezer, you're wrong on your intepretation of the Patriot Act. Among other things, it lowers the standard for pen/trap and internet surveillance from "probable cause" to "relevant to an ongoing investigation" (in other words, the person is not necessarily suspected of anything at all), allows wiretapping people who are "proximate" to the target under FISA (again, probable cause is not required), and access to records of non-suspect individuals.
www.911-strike.com/ACLU-surveillance.htm
You should see what it says about cyber crime (nothing to do with terrorism at all). In fact, it's probably more dangerous (for you, since it would seem more likely) if you are suspected of cyber crime.
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Of course, this assumes you believe that law enforcement officers are actually obeying the law. If you don't, it doesn't really matter, does it? They could watch you illegally and you'd never know it.
Of course. So why don't we just do away with the Constitution? Why bother with what our laws say? Why fuss about the Patriot Act? Let's quit pretending to be a nation of laws. Let's just trust our government or accede to their power, lay back and enjoy the sex or rape- however you view it.
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And if it doesn’t happen, there’s always tomorrow, or the next day to worry about. That’s why global warming and the book of Revelations are so popular.
yes there always is something to worry about, that is if you don't take action, Global warming is real..as for the book of revalation that is tied up in someone's faith so I really can't comment on that..nor do I desire to, but what this administration is doing to our country is real all you have to do look around and see whats happening..and it will happen not because I say so..but based on the actions of the Bush administration!!
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:
Of course, this assumes you believe that law enforcement officers are actually obeying the law. If you don't, it doesn't really matter, does it? They could watch you illegally and you'd never know it.
Of course. So why don't we just do away with the Constitution? Why bother with what our laws say? Why fuss about the Patriot Act? Let's quit pretending to be a nation of laws. Let's just trust our government or accede to their power, lay back and enjoy the sex or rape- however you view it.
If you don't trust the government, it doesn't matter what laws there are in place, since the government is the protector and enforcer of the laws. You apparently believe that the government, at all levels, is just a bunch of evil, greedy, proto-nazis. In that case you're already lost, no matter what the laws. So you might as well either lay back and enjoy it, or leave.
For no better reason than it's been working pretty well for 200+ years, plus the fact that I worked in Civil Service for 36 years and have a pretty good idea who the average government employee is, I think that the system pretty much turns out to be self-correcting, and that swings one way or another are to be expected.
Frankly, I consider you pretty paranoid about this whole thing, and you probably consider that I see it through rose-colored glasses. We each have a right to our opinions, and ,dispite your fears, will probably continue to have that right.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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If you don't trust the government, it doesn't matter what laws there are in place, since the government is the protector and enforcer of the laws
So- why have laws at all? Why have laws against murder? Laws don't stop criminal action because the people committing the crimes are, well, criminals. If they payed attention to the law, they wouldn't be criminals, would they?
In any case, I think you're missing an essential point about democracy as the Founding Fathers envisioned. I'm pretty sure they didn't mean to leave the functioning of the goverment to the whims of those in government, no matter how benign those whims might be or whether different levels of government are playing by different rules. What do you suppose it is?
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The threats from violent crime whether it be terrorists or gangs are real. Not fear mongering designed to expand the powers of the government.
but isn't it ironic that its being used for just that purpose,fear mongering to exspand the powers of government!!
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
So- why have laws at all? Why have laws against murder? Laws don't stop criminal action because the people committing the crimes are, well, criminals. If they payed attention to the law, they wouldn't be criminals, would they?
This question is so silly I suspect you of being purposely obtuse.
Criminal laws are there to let people know what is not acceptible. The government enforces these laws. Even bad governments which don't obey the law themselves make at least a pass at enforcing criminal laws. Duh.
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In any case, I think you're missing an essential point about democracy as the Founding Fathers envisioned. I'm pretty sure they didn't mean to leave the functioning of the goverment to the whims of those in government, no matter how benign those whims might be or whether different levels of government are playing by different rules. What do you suppose it is?
I think it's you who doesn't understand the Founding Fathers vision. They expected the government to serve the people and the people to let the government know what they wanted it to do. The people's method of letting the government know what they want it to do is the ballot box. For good or ill, the policy of the government reflects the vote of the people, not the result of a magazine poll, the pronouncements of pundits, or the fears of the ACLU.
The people's elected representatives passed the Patriot Act. Sorry that you don't like it. If you believe that Congress is so easily fooled, you've pretty much written off our form of government anyway.
Even if Bush "stole" the election, you have another chance in a couple of years to elect someone more to your liking. If you don't believe this is true, then you have no recourse, and might as well give up, get out, or try revolution.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Hey Geezer. Pretty much agreeing with most of what you're saying here. I still think some major portions of the Patriot Act were ill conceived, but there are worthwhile portions as well.
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The people's elected representatives passed the Patriot Act. Sorry that you don't like it. If you believe that Congress is so easily fooled, you've pretty much written off our form of government anyway.
This comment got me thinking. I don't think Congress is easily fooled, but I think it was, and has often been, pushed into foolhardy action because the voting public IS relatively easily fooled. This bothers me a great deal and is something that seems to be getting worse.
This was my main complaint with the last election. None of the elections I've seen (the first one I remember is Carter's victory) have featured highbrowed discussion of the issues, but this last campaign was just embarassing. Kerry and his group dished out the same old scare tactics and liberal nonsense, but Bush/Rove just went over-the-top in terms of dumbing everything down to three or four word phrases that were then repeated doggedly.
The slogans and phrases were carefully researched to provoke various reactions in people, often contradictory reactions in different groups, but the common thread is that they didn't mean much at all and usually served to blur an issue more than to clarify it. The fact that this style of campaigning was so effective truly makes me worry about the future of democracy in this country. I honestly don't know how intelligent Bush supporters could stomach hearing it.
I guess what I'm saying is how worthwhile can democracy be when it comes down to manipulating a population weened on public education and television? It just seems like bread and circuses from here on out.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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