We have very little time left as a democracy- the Patriot Act, open-ended weapon against democracy
POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Thursday, October 16, 2025 15:16
VIEWED: 18510
PAGE 11 of 21
Quote:You could be right. Would it bother you? Is there something wrong with getting rid of a few violent gangs that attempt to control entire neighborhoods in order to exercise their criminal enterprise?
Originally posted by piratejenny:
just because gangs or people involved in tagger shoot-outs and drive by's arent considered terrorist, are we assuming that the laws in the patriot Act won't apply to them. because I would bet my last dollar that it does apply to them or will apply to them!!
Quote:Yes, well, by “eco-terrorism” I don’t think anyone is referring to the Animal Rights groups who act in a lawful manner.
Originally posted by piratejenny:
on the other hand these eniviromental groups and Animal rights groups for the most part act in a lawful manner and their activities are public....even if they commit an unlawful act such as stageing a protest and someone gets arrested for blocking a street, these groups activities are public, they have the will and the motivation to effect change and can do it in a lawful manner....so it makes sense that the Patriot Act would target such groups, its the 1rst step in setting the ground work to take away peoples rights.
It doesn’t make any sense to compare violent gangs with lawful Animal Rights groups.-------------
Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.
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Finn, one thing that maybe you're not getting. You keep suggesting we'd prefer not going after violent criminals. That's really not the issue. No one thinks that those burning and looting or committing other acts of violence should be ignored. The question is whether the same tactics being used against Al-Queda sleeper cells should be applied to these other groups. See the difference?
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Sarge Re: fascism
I suppose it depends on how you define it. If you mean a system in which an individual's economic and political rights are far inferior to those of the government and corporations, in which individuals need to be educated in military-style school and learn the received cultural wisdom, then that's the word I mean. Possibly your definition is different. It's surely something to discuss.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:Quote:You could be right. Would it bother you? Is there something wrong with getting rid of a few violent gangs that attempt to control entire neighborhoods in order to exercise their criminal enterprise?
Originally posted by piratejenny:
just because gangs or people involved in tagger shoot-outs and drive by's arent considered terrorist, are we assuming that the laws in the patriot Act won't apply to them. because I would bet my last dollar that it does apply to them or will apply to them!!Quote:Yes, well, by “eco-terrorism” I don’t think anyone is referring to the Animal Rights groups who act in a lawful manner.
Originally posted by piratejenny:
on the other hand these eniviromental groups and Animal rights groups for the most part act in a lawful manner and their activities are public....even if they commit an unlawful act such as stageing a protest and someone gets arrested for blocking a street, these groups activities are public, they have the will and the motivation to effect change and can do it in a lawful manner....so it makes sense that the Patriot Act would target such groups, its the 1rst step in setting the ground work to take away peoples rights.
-------------
Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.
The only problem I have with it, is the label of terrorism who is a terrorist, if enviromental groups and animal rights groups can be labeld terrorist...whats the next step, who is to say that I'm not a terrorist for handing out papers and speaking out publicly denouncing a government I think is turning Facist....
The issue here isn't about gangs, its about targeting groups and treating them like terrorist, not because they are but because the government says they are...you keep mentioning violent acts..but the Patriot act isn't limited to violent crimnal acts and as we've seen from above stated examples of people being monitered etc..you don't have to be doing anything illeagle to be targeted as a terroist!!
So the big question that everyone including yourself should be asking since The Patriot Act has already passed... is WHY??????? why would the government be targeting such groups as /terrorist..Why are these groups being made a prority
Why not make Drug Cartels, or Supremist groups, or even gangs a prority all of which pose a greater threat then do these groups!!!.....SO WHY!!!!!
I can answer that question!!....it just brings the government one step closer to creating an atomsphere that makes it that much easier for them to be in a position to strip away peoples rights .. this is just the 1rst step.
How many of or freedoms and rights are we going to have to give up in the name of so called security.. and why should we even have to!!???
and where does it end we now have the National I.D card on its way!! and we have the Patriot Act...where is the buck going to stop or is it going to stop?????? do you have a limit of how much of your rights its ok for the government to take away before you start be concerned...
when does the bubble burst, I think one of the biggest things the government has to its advantage is the fact that the American people don't think it can happen to us
IMO.... it wouldn't surprise me in the least if the government manufactured some type of incident 9/11 like to really get the ball rolling!!!
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Quote:
it wouldn't surprise me in the least if the government manufactured some type of incident 9/11 like to really get the ball rolling!!!
You're not the first person to have said that. One person at work, first thing he said when he heard that Bush was spending a lot of time at Crawford was... "That would be a good time to get rid of Washington and declare a national emergency." And yeah, I know ppl call him a conspiracy nut (including me sometimes
) but if you would have told me six years ago that the Republicans would have rigged two elections in a row, invaded two countries, bankrupted the Federal budget, and passed the Patriot Act (which BTW they had sitting in draft form BEFORE 9-11), attacked Social Security, created a department of Homeland Security (Homeland Security! I mean, how Tuetonic can you get???) and leapt into the arms of the religious right I would have said you were even more paranoid than me. So, I guess I've learned not to dscount ANYTHING from this administration. NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:I’m aware of the issue.
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Finn, one thing that maybe you're not getting. You keep suggesting we'd prefer not going after violent criminals. That's really not the issue. No one thinks that those burning and looting or committing other acts of violence should be ignored. The question is whether the same tactics being used against Al-Queda sleeper cells should be applied to these other groups. See the difference?
Quote:That has nothing to do with terrorism or the Patriot Act. If you don’t believe me just as Dr. Robert Oppenheimer, there was no threat of terrorism or Patriot Act then.
Originally posted by piratejenny:
The only problem I have with it, is the label of terrorism who is a terrorist, if enviromental groups and animal rights groups can be labeld terrorist...whats the next step, who is to say that I'm not a terrorist for handing out papers and speaking out publicly denouncing a government I think is turning Facist....
Quote:Actually the Patriot Act is quite clear in stating that domestic terrorism is limited to violent acts.
Originally posted by piratejenny:
The issue here isn't about gangs, its about targeting groups and treating them like terrorist, not because they are but because the government says they are...you keep mentioning violent acts..but the Patriot act isn't limited to violent crimnal acts and as we've seen from above stated examples of people being monitered etc..you don't have to be doing anything illeagle to be targeted as a terroist!!
Quote:The only groups that I have seen the government label as terrorist do clearly seem to be quite terrorist in nature. So the government basically seems to be going after terrorist as they said they would, that’s why.
Originally posted by piratejenny:
So the big question that everyone including yourself should be asking since The Patriot Act has already passed... is WHY??????? why would the government be targeting such groups as /terrorist..Why are these groups being made a prority
Quote:We are going after them. In fact, I think that if you examine the resources used by law enforcement, you would find that a vastly larger among of resource is used to go after Drug Cartels then environmental terrorist groups. I don’t know about supremacy groups since they are not even a big issue anymore, but I still hear about arrests in that area as well.
Originally posted by piratejenny:
Why not make Drug Cartels, or Supremist groups, or even gangs a prority all of which pose a greater threat then do these groups!!!.....SO WHY!!!!!
Quote:Imaginative rant, but I'm not sure it's helping your clarity of vision in this case.
Originally posted by piratejenny:
I can answer that question!!....it just brings the government one step closer to creating an atomsphere that makes it that much easier for them to be in a position to strip away peoples rights .. this is just the 1rst step.
How many of or freedoms and rights are we going to have to give up in the name of so called security.. and why should we even have to!!???
and where does it end we now have the National I.D card on its way!! and we have the Patriot Act...where is the buck going to stop or is it going to stop?????? do you have a limit of how much of your rights its ok for the government to take away before you start be concerned...
when does the bubble burst, I think one of the biggest things the government has to its advantage is the fact that the American people don't think it can happen to us
IMO.... it wouldn't surprise me in the least if the government manufactured some type of incident 9/11 like to really get the ball rolling!!!
-------------
Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.
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Hmmm. Let's see If I have this right.
-Republican president
-Elected by a narrow majority
-Drums up war fever based on a goal that's not his real goal
-Invades a poorer, less powerful country
-Destroys entire cities and reduces the civilian population to poverty
-Suspends Constitutional rights in the name of security
-After the war a government of occupation is installed, with perks for the conquerors
And this despoiler of democracy would be?
Select to view spoiler:
Why Abraham Lincoln, of course.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:Quote:I’m aware of the issue.
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Finn, one thing that maybe you're not getting. You keep suggesting we'd prefer not going after violent criminals. That's really not the issue. No one thinks that those burning and looting or committing other acts of violence should be ignored. The question is whether the same tactics being used against Al-Queda sleeper cells should be applied to these other groups. See the difference?
Hmmmm. Then I'm not sure what to make of that. If you're aware of the issue, why won't you address it? Are you just playing dumb to get Jenny and Signym all worked up?
I'm not trying to be rude, I just see a lot of pointless exchange here and I'm wondering whether you're being evasive on purpose or what?
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Hmmm. Let's see If I have this right.
-Republican president
-Elected by a narrow majority
-Drums up war fever based on a goal that's not his real goal
-Invades a poorer, less powerful country
-Destroys entire cities and reduces the civilian population to poverty
-Suspends Constitutional rights in the name of security
-After the war a government of occupation is installed, with perks for the conquerors
And this despoiler of democracy would be?
Why Abraham Lincoln, of course.
The parallels are indeed disturbing. Dubya seems to have borrowed 'honest' Abe's playbook.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Quote:My guess is that Jenny and Signym are going to get worked up either way. What makes you think that I'm not addressing it? It sounds to me like I am addressing it. If violent gangs are as bad as Rue and others have suggested, and I don’t necessarily disagree, is there really something wrong with using the expanded tools of the Patriot Act to deal with them?
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Hmmmm. Then I'm not sure what to make of that. If you're aware of the issue, why won't you address it? Are you just playing dumb to get Jenny and Signym all worked up?
Perhaps you’ve never considered the issue, maybe? Perhaps you’ve not stopped to consider that maybe it might be a good use of the Patriot Act to help get rid of some of these violent gangs that have caused so many neighborhoods so much problem?
The argument that Jenny and Signym are trying to make is that the Patriot Act represents some kind of mythical evil, but is that really the case? Is there really some evil intent ingrained in it? Jenny seems to think that there is something ominous about using the Patriot Act to deal with violent gangs, but is that really the case, or is that simply part of the myth?
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Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.
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