We have very little time left as a democracy- the Patriot Act, open-ended weapon against democracy
POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Thursday, October 16, 2025 15:16
VIEWED: 18510
PAGE 10 of 21
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Originally posted by rue:
In that case, people who merely set animals free...
One would hope not experimental animals infected with disease.
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...stake trees...
Ever see what happens when a chainsaw hits a nail in a log?
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...or even burn (empty) SUVs at dealerships etc...
You don't consider dozens of burning vehicles full of fuel dangerous? I bet the firefighters who have to deal with them do.
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...are not engaged in acts dangerous to human life...
Obviously, I disagree with that assertion.
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while people involved in tagger shoot-outs and drive-by's do qualify. Yet one group is considered terrorist, while the more dangerous group is not. Why not?
I think Finn has explained that very well. I'll go with his logic. I might also add that Earth First!, ALF and ELF are national, or possibly international, organizations with a political agenda. Most gangs are local or regional, except MS-13, and don't have a political agenda. It really is that political agenda thing that differentiates just plain crooks from terrorists.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Originally posted by MacBaker:
I defend any group's 2nd ammendment right to protest...
With guns? Right on!
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Ah yes... I had to look up the Patriot Act again to find the parts that so disturbed the ACLU and EFF- an me- the first time. The Patriot Act created the definiiton of "domestic terrorism" to include: (section 802 et seq of the Patriot Act)
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(5) the term `domestic terrorism' means activities that--
(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;
(B) appear to be intended--
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
(C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States.
www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/Section802.html
So what does this include? Well- foreign agents in the United States (eg al Qaida sleeper cells) AND GANGS under "(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population". Note that it does not say "....for political purposes".
What else does this include? Stripping away the surrounding language it says: "Domestic terrorism is any criminal activity that endnagers human life and appears to be intended to influence the government by intimidation or coercion." If you wanted to stretch a point- and the FBI appears to want to- that COULD include setting a bundle of newpapers on fire because that might endanger human life. After all, fire is dangerous!
The Patriot Act is, among other things, a surveillance act. Many of the objectionable points are found in section 213 et seq of the Patriot Act www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/Section213.html which lower the bar SO FAR in terms surveillance that it is not even necessary to be suspected of domestic terrorism (no matter how broad that definition is) or to show probable cause to initiate surveillance:
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The PATRIOT Act made dozens of significant changes to the law,including a handful that are truly radical. The PATRIOT Act is hundreds of pages long, includes dozens of provisions, and
substantially amends numerous federal statutes. Among other things, the PATRIOT Act:
• empowers the FBI to obtain records concerning anyone at all, including people who are not suspected of any involvement whatsoever in criminal activity or espionage, and prohibits organizations that are forced to disclose
their records from telling anyone else about it (Section 215)
• for the first time in the country’s history, empowers the FBI to disregard the
Fourth Amendment’s usual requirements – including the probable cause and notice requirements – in some criminal investigations (Section 218)
• empowers the FBI to conduct searches in criminal investigations, however minor the crime, without notifying the targets of the searches until weeks or even months later (Section 213)
• expands the Attorney General’s power unilaterally to demand the credit and banking records of anyone at all, including people who are not suspected of any involvement whatsoever in criminal activity or espionage (Section 505)
www.aclu-sc.org/attachments/p/PATRIOTpropaganda.pdf
And finally, the Patriot Act rather gratuitously includes a number of "cybercrimes" and allows more-or-less unlimited electronic surveillance in cases which have nothing at all to do with terrorism.
www.eff.org/Censorship/Terrorism_militias/patriot-act-II-analysis.php
And what was this all for? All of the crimes addressed in the so-called Patriot Act could be addressed under other statutes, including FISA and RICOH as well as ordinary criminal laws. The difference is that the so-called Patriot Act does away with probable cause. All of the Consitutional intent about "unreasonable search and seizure" seems to have gone by the wayside.
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Originally posted by Geezer:Quote:
Originally posted by MacBaker:
I defend any group's 2nd ammendment right to protest...
With guns? Right on!
"Keep the Shiny side up"
Oops! Obviously, I meant the 1st ammendment, not the second.
As a gun owner, I strongly support the 2nd ammendment as much as the 1st though, so it was on my mind.
Here's the thing. If Bush really wanted to become this evil emperor the doom and gloom types predict he will, his first step would be to remove our second ammendment rights. It's what Hitler did, and Saddam. Since it's the left wing that continues to try to grab my guns, I'm more concerned with their motives. If our democracy does fall, it will be the gun owners that will have the best chance to rise up and restore our freedom. Jefferson predicted this inevitability, and supported the 2nd ammendment for this very reason.
I'd given some thought to movin' off the edge -- not an ideal location -- thinkin' a place in the middle.
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Also dealing with terrorism from policy of willful ignorance may basically guarantee one of two things (possibly both). First, if law enforcement is not given the tools that it needs to respond to terrorist threats, then there is considerable danger of a second ‘9/ll,’ and the death of thousands, possibly tens of thousands and conceivably hundreds of thousands of innocent people.
all I see here is you trying to rationalize giving up your freedom. I can't help but think of that Benjermin Franklin Quote!! Those who give up their freedom in the name of security deserve neither security nor liberty..or something to that effect!!!
humor me if you want
3 things come to mind, either you really don't care about loosing your freedoms, or you don't believe your in any real danger of loosing your freedoms or it makes no diffrence to you because you intend to align yourself with the fascist governmen even at the exspense of living under such a system!!,
just as in firefly, there are those who work for the alliance..Just as in Nazi Germnany...and so on an so forth!!!
there are always those people for vaious reasons be it, fear, lack of courage, ignorance, self-righteousness, greed, insecurity, power, who are always willing to stop progress and align themselves with such an oppressive system!!
when (or if) it comes time to choose, which choice will you make..I know my choice!!!
I'm not looking to Bush or any branch of the government . I'm looking at people who have the power to stop or make such a system possible or not possible...
thats you , me , and everyone else out there!!!
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Without naming names, I can see one person on this board who is already fascist. That's because he is so hyperfocused on the threat from "them" and believes that the defense is militarism (which prolly explains why his ideal society is highly militarized and regimented)- that he doesn't realize he has BECOME the Alliance.
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I'm not sure 'fascism' really applies. Unless you're just using it as hyperbole.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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In that case, people who merely set animals free, stake trees, paint slogans or even burn (empty) SUVs at dealerships etc are not engaged in acts dangerous to human life, while people involved in tagger shoot-outs and drive-by's do qualify. Yet one group is considered terrorist, while the more dangerous group is not. Why not?
Why not????
indeed is the Million dollar question!!!
just because gangs or people involved in tagger shoot-outs and drive by's arent considered terrorist, are we assuming that the laws in the patriot Act won't apply to them. because I would bet my last dollar that it does apply to them or will apply to them!!
gangs and such are acting below the radar already, their activities are illeagle, they don't have a voice to affect a change nor the motivation or agenda and ther are already ways of dealing with them because of the unlawfulness of their activities
on the other hand these eniviromental groups and Animal rights groups for the most part act in a lawful manner and their activities are public....even if they commit an unlawful act such as stageing a protest and someone gets arrested for blocking a street, these groups activities are public, they have the will and the motivation to effect change and can do it in a lawful manner....so it makes sense that the Patriot Act would target such groups, its the 1rst step in setting the ground work to take away peoples rights.
if someone else can eleaborate on this please do!!
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Originally posted by SignyM:
Without naming names, I can see one person on this board who is already fascist. That's because he is so hyperfocused on the threat from "them" and believes that the defense is militarism (which prolly explains why his ideal society is highly militarized and regimented)- that he doesn't realize he has BECOME the Alliance.
without naming names I know who your talking about, only I think he is fully aware of the ALLIANCE connection.
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