We have very little time left as a democracy- the Patriot Act, open-ended weapon against democracy
POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Thursday, October 16, 2025 15:16
VIEWED: 18510
PAGE 9 of 21
Okay. If you say so.
I've not actually read all of it, but I don't think I have too much problem with it.
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Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Okay. If you say so.
I've not actually read all of it, but I don't think I have too much problem with it.
Yeah, no worries. None of the people who voted on it read it either. Life is short, drink up! Why ask why?
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Well, that’s your story. I don't know how true it is. I hear a lot of stories about the Patriot Act, but the truth is often hidden under many layers spin.
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Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.
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uh...
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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No offense intended. I've just learned to be skeptical of political opinions. You may be right. I just don’t know, right now.
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Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.
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Jeez... Finn, its so tempting to just resort to ridicule. Don't you have any interest in finding out?? I mean, you don't have to read it. I don't even recommend it. I tried but ended up skimming for the most part. You might get a little out of it, but honestly it's just bunch of subtle wording changes to existing law.
If you really want to make sense of it, find yourself an overview you can trust and take a look. I linked you to one earlier in the thread, but apparently you weren't interested. The thing is, I can't even take your opinions seriously if you're not interested enough to find out what's in the damned thing.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Yes, it’s a quagmire of English wording, particularly for someone without a law degree. I have looked into it, from time to time. The last time was to find out if what I was being told about libraries was correct. After many hours of research, I discovered that the person who ridiculed the Patriot Act with regard to libraries was mistaken. In general, what I find is that much of the stories I hear are overblown. Such as the stories about the Patriot Act not allowing due process, I’ve never seen that, nor has anyone ever pointed it out to me.
A lot of it comes down to simple degree of opinion. As Rue said, I, evidently, am in agreement with the Patriot Act. You may not be. But the stories that I hear are not about degrees of agreement, but rather overblown hyperbole about the end of our democracy, and simply ridiculous accusations. Like your story for instance: no one who voted for it, read it? I’m sure some, perhaps many, congressmen and congresswomen didn’t read it and voted for it, but many probably did. So strictly speaking you are probably wrong. Someone who voted for it, probably read it. The Patriot Act has been elevated to a status of mythical demonic evil, and frankly I can’t believe anything Liberals say about it anymore. I’m sorry, but that’s the bed that has been made by a sensational media and Postmodern Liberal, anti-Bush demagoguery that insists on ridiculous hyperbole instead of fact.
It’s not personal, but the Patriot Act is one of those things that I'm skeptical of what I hear from both sides. I don't think anyone's giving me the truth on it.
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Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.
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Quote:This much I have to agree with. The thing is, it's written fairly vaguely, and without some contextual knowledge about how the law was being interpreted before the changes, its hard to appreciate exactly what has changed.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
In general, what I find is that much of the stories I hear are overblown.
Did you read the article I linked you to? Don't feel like I'm setting you up. It's a very cleared-eyed look that specifically addresses the wording changes. The article isn't biased and makes very little in the way of opinion based conclusions. You could read it and not have your mind changed at all, but at least then we could discuss it with some factual basis.
Quote:Let's see... Here's one example:
Such as the stories about the Patriot Act not allowing due process, I’ve never seen that, nor has anyone ever pointed it out to me.
Quote:
The law before and how it changed: Under Title III of the Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets Act of 1968, a traditional phone wiretap could be obtained on a showing of probable cause that one of an enumerated list of crimes had been committed. Warrants were valid for only 30 days, and the government needed to report back to the court. Under the 1978 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act the requirements for a wiretap order were more minimal: The FBI didn't need probable cause or even reasonable suspicion to install a tap, but only had to certify to a judge that information resulting from such a warrant would be "relevant" to an ongoing criminal investigation. Section 214 doesn't change this standard but broadens the reach—making the FISA pen register/trap-and-trace power available in both criminal and foreign intelligence investigations, so long as the government merely certifies that the information obtained would be "relevant to an ongoing investigation." The probable-cause requirement in criminal cases is gone. Courts may not inquire into the truthfulness of the allegations before authorizing a tap.
There's lots more, but I don't want to clutter up this thread more than necessary.
Quote:I wouldn't be so sure. The bill was pushed through in a heated rush. Closed-door negotiations, no conference committee, no reports, no final hearing for opposing views. Most of the legislators didn't even get a copy of the 131 paged bill before they were asked to vote on it. Yeah, someone had read it. But most of those who voted on it hadn't. That's why so many of them spoke out against it afterward. They realized they'd been duped by the 'emergency' status they were working under.
Like your story for instance: no one who voted for it, read it? I’m sure some, perhaps many, congressmen and congresswomen didn’t read it and voted for it, but many probably did. So strictly speaking you are probably wrong. Someone who voted for it, probably read it.
As a Libertarian, I know what it's like dealing with the shrill histrionics of the liberal press. This isn't what's going on here.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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In reference to the original thread topic, I found this in an old article about the Patriot Act.
Quote:The article goes on to say...
Section 802, aka "Tree-Hugging Terrorists"
This section has received a lot of attention and is almost single-handedly responsible for alienating right-wing groups like the Eagle Forum, as well as fundamentalist Christians across the land. Why? Because it creates a new crime and could, critics say, be used someday to prosecute Operation Rescue protesters.
What it does: Section 802 creates a category of crime called "domestic terrorism," penalizing activities that "involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States," if the actor's intent is to "influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion."
Quote:heh.... looks like that dog is baring his teeth, eh?
The fears over this provision are almost entirely hypothetical. Maybe Greenpeace activists really are on the hook, but that sounds a bit overheated in light of the text of the act. And while fearmongers in the press have suggested that you can now be jailed for a bar fight, the statute requires both endangering of life and an intent to influence the government. This provision is more bark than bite.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Quote:
Okay, now we start to see the real truth here! You want the govenrment to only go after those groups you personally disagree with. Is that it?
Police and federal law enforcement agencies have been prosecuting individual clan members for unlawful and violent acts for decades, and many have been brought to justice for their crimes. The KKK as an orginization still has the right to exist and to publicly protest, as long as it's in a peaceful manner. I don't agree with any of their agenda, but I do defend their right to protest. Those clansmen that resort to violence, are hunted down and prosecuted (when enough availible evidence is there to make a case), and they should be.
I defend any group's 2nd ammendment right to protest, but when individuals or groups resort to the use of violent terrorist acts to achieve their goals, they should be brought to justice. I don't really care if no one was hurt. The explosive found in that person's Hummer shows just how far some are willing to go. Itt almost always escalates to even bigger violence.
I'd given some thought to movin' off the edge -- not an ideal location -- thinkin' a place in the middle.
My personal dislike for the kkk, has nothing to do it!!! I happen to agree that the kkk has the right to voice there opinions, what they don't have the right to do is kill, or harm people.
you can go on an on about certain groups destroyin inventory or whatever but you still haven't proven how these groups are a GREAT THREAT!!!.. and you won't be able to because they aren't!!
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