I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore
POSTED BY: JCKnife
UPDATED: Thursday, August 17, 2023 17:53
VIEWED: 13532
PAGE 10 of 12
Quote:
Originally posted by JCKnife:
We seem to be suffering from a lack of common sense in today's society--that's what a lot of "zero-tolerance" policies amount to: taking common sense out of the equation and, god forbid, not forcing an adiministrator or decision-maker to make a (GASP!) value judgement!
No one wants to lock up 18-yr-old Junior having consentual fun with 17-yr-old Mary.
Totally agree with this part, but...
Quote:
...if we can't agree that those who seek out, rape, and murder pre-pubescent children are evil, and must be punished to the fullest extent of the law for the purposes of both eradicating them from our society and discouraging others from following through with the same notion, then we have something fundamentally wrong. Actually YOU do. I'm not afraid to say it.
Afraid to say what? That child-murderers are bad and ought to be punished?? What courage!
What takes a bit more courage, in my estimation, is to do what MVP did, to stand up to emotional, mob mentality and call for some rational discourse.
Lobbying for a bunch of ill-conceived laws isn't going to do a damn thing to prevent such a thing from happening. The last I checked, murdering children was already illegal. I'm assuming the punishment is already quite harsh as well.
Quote:
I have to keep reminding myself that this board is read worldwide. I hope that those of you waffling on the side of the child-killers are not U.S. citizens.
See... this is why I didn't speak up earlier. I've tried to remain respectful and, in all reality, I do understand the emotion behind your post. I have children of my own and the risks are indeed frightening. But if you're going to accuse me of 'waffling on the side of child-killers' just because I doubt the wisdom of your proposal, well, that's beyond insulting.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Here is an example of "evil" child rapists/ killers- Alejandro Avila, who raped and smothered Samantha Runion. The picture is that this man gained gratification from molesting young girls and that he chose his own gratification over a little girl's life.
Now... how do we keep this from happening again to some other kid? Maybe finding why it happened will lead us to some postive steps.
First of all, I rather doubt that he would be detered by the death penalty. As SargeantX has pointed out, these crimes are already illegal AND they carry stiff penalites. It didn't seem to deter Avila. Since the crime was committed in broad daylight in front of a witness, and only half-hearted attempts were made to hide the body and get rid of evidence, it seems that the LAST thing that Avila had in mind was getting caught and punished.
Then there is Avila's history. According to the defense lawyer, when he was young Avila was "Beaten like a boy and raped like a girl". That's not to say that every child who is beaten and raped becomes a monster, but is sure skews the percentages.
What would I do with people like Avila? I've said it before- put him away for life and study the h*ll out of him. Why did HE become a criminal, and not somebody else with the same history? How can we prevent it from happening to someone else? How can we distinguish the truly incorrigible from the treatable? (PET scans? personality tests? pupil dilation?) How can that pathology be treated? How might we use that information to screen and treat (if possible) people who are arrested for lesser crimes BEFORE they go on the commit even greater ones?
It all seems pretty straighforward. It may not serve the purpose of getting your blood racing and your outrage exercised, but I think would serve the purpose of protecting society better than the death penalty or even life in jail.
You may consider this "waffling on the side of child killers" but I consider this advocating to protect society by the best, most effective means possible and that anything else is just gratuitous, ineffective, and puts society at greater risk.
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OK- I'll go out on a limb on this... Quite a thread- everyone seems to agree that a problem exists. Solutions vary depending on idiology, yet most tend to lean in the same general direction. No soapboxes here, found out long ago they just don't support my weight. This discussion generated some intense emotions among folks, but all of this amounts to is alot of unfocused rage and angst and a sense of helplessness...
Here's a thought- take this heated passion and do something with it! Get involved, write letters, work with organizations, work with the victims- hell, work with the perpetrators, work in the community- resorces are out there- get involved!!!
It comes down to this: If our lives our abundant with something, we have an obligation to share our abundance with others. None here had life vaguely like Beaver Cleaver, but those among us who did grow up untouched, unmolested, or otherwise abused have an obligation to pass that on to others and to see that others have a life where the likelyhood of abuse is dimished.
Maybe this isn't your battle, or at least not the one you want to take on... I'm sure our lives are abundant in other areas that we are willing to share with others. IF YOU ARE ALLREADY INVOLVED AND SHARING YOUR ABUNDANCE... GOOD!!! If not, do it, you'll feel better for it- way better than just stewing in angst.
I think my old soapbox just caught fire... that's enough- take care all.
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Well said HT, and that WAS my original point--that I want to put my energy into action. Thank you. And Sarge, any insults hurled your way were probably an emotional reaction on my part (I'm loathe to apologize for that here, as this SHOULD be an emotional issue).
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Quote:
Originally posted by JCKnife:
No one wants to lock up 18-yr-old Junior having consentual fun with 17-yr-old Mary. But if we can't agree that those who seek out, rape, and murder pre-pubescent children are evil, and must be punished to the fullest extent of the law for the purposes of both eradicating them from our society and discouraging others from following through with the same notion, then we have something fundamentally wrong. Actually YOU do. I'm not afraid to say it.
I have to keep reminding myself that this board is read worldwide. I hope that those of you waffling on the side of the child-killers are not U.S. citizens.
Wow. You make George Galloway look good. Well, the senate committee did that, but there you go.
You seem to be ignoring, either because you're not reading properly or choosing not to see, what everyone who appears to disagree with you is saying - ain't no-one that I can see posted a response that's "on the side of the child killers" - or perhaps you can refer me to the posts I missed.
You even agreed with my own argument up there sparky, so you're waffling outside your own shores with me.
"must be punished to the fullest extent of the law..." - you then go on to say "by eradicating them", when even Jeb couldn't get that bit past the Florida law makers, 2008 ticket or no.
Others have eloquently explained that this is a crime to which the punishment does not, cannot deter, so limb 2 of your argument is dangling in the wind.
As to limb 1 - well if you catch and try a rapist/murderer (whatever the age of the victim) and the law allows capital punishment, well I may not cry out too loudly - the law as defined by the government at the time, not the mob.
"I threw up on your bed"
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Something approximating... "- 10% of nothin' is... let me do the numbers... Nothin'"
When winning one's contention regarding one's perspective on an existing societal problem becomes more important to one than the problem itself, we have indeed ourselves become part of the problem.
Solutions begin only when the one steps outside of the problem and reaches out to another. The other then eventually reaches out to another, and so on, etc., etc.
Solutions come from empathy and are dynamic, creative, and powerful. Solutions derived out of cynicism, self-righteousness, and ego accomplish little.
Genuine aid only occurs when one accepts that other realities exist outside of one's self-generated and perceived safety-and-comfort zone and chooses to experience those other realities for what they are.
Folks is hurtin' out there while most folks are content to do nothing at all.
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Quote:
Originally posted by HaniTrader:
Something approximating... "- 10% of nothin' is... let me do the numbers... Nothin'"
When winning one's contention regarding one's perspective on an existing societal problem becomes more important to one than the problem itself, we have indeed ourselves become part of the problem.
Solutions begin only when the one steps outside of the problem and reaches out to another. The other then eventually reaches out to another, and so on, etc., etc.
Solutions come from empathy and are dynamic, creative, and powerful. Solutions derived out of cynicism, self-righteousness, and ego accomplish little.
Genuine aid only occurs when one accepts that other realities exist outside of one's self-generated and perceived safety-and-comfort zone and chooses to experience those other realities for what they are.
Folks is hurtin' out there while most folks are content to do nothing at all.
Excellent post HaniTrader!!!!!
I wish everyone felt the same way.
BTW, are you quoting someone else or are them
pretty words your own?
Does'nt really matter one way or another. If
others could see the truth in those statements there would be a hell of a lot less political
diatribes on the board to annoy everyone.
Am I a Lion?... No, I think I'ma tellin' the truth.
BarnStormer
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If solutions come from empathy, and the problem is the criminal, I suppose we should be more empathetic towards the criminal. Right?
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
If solutions come from empathy, and the problem is the criminal, I suppose we should be more empathetic towards the criminal. Right?
Wow, if only this thread could continue in this vein of inquiry.
The problem I see over and over is polarization and hate. Child rapists polarize and hate children. Good citizens polarize and hate child rapists. It's been said repeatedly here that children are only very rarely raped or murdered by strangers. That's part of the reason it's so difficult to combat. It's like some rare blood disease: the doctor is lucky to notice it at all and even more lucky to catch it while it's still preventable. I think the only way to deal with these very rare cases is to study their similarities and connections to far less rare problems, but our culture want's to say that child rapists are "monsters," special and different, so different that they don't deserve to live, for instance.
JCKnife, you need to understand that these few deranged men and women are not "The" problem. Practically all perpetrators employ "grooming" techniques to create the image of consent, to better control their victims. Psychologically, most of them need to believe that their victims are "into it." Let's teach our children about "grooming," how 'bout that? Most victims of rape of any age, carry serious scares from early life around sexuality and trust. We, as a culture, set up our children for abuse by our neglect and aggressive ignorance.
(Ach, I can hear the objections already. I'm not saying that child rapists are blameless, it's society's fault, blah, blah, blah. I'm saying that blame is simply not an effective problem solving tool. I'm saying that we will NEVER solve the problem by punishing perpetrators more efficiently. So PRACTICALLY speaking, their culpability is a moot point, when trying to solve the problem of child abuse. We are trying to solve the problem of child abuse, right? We're not just trying to satisfy our need for payback, right? Right? The truth is, this thread is really about powerlessness. As long as we focus on crime and punishment we will solve exactly nothing. The simple, painful truth is: we are powerless to control rare and aberant behavior. Period.)
For example: "Don't talk to strangers" is a quick and certain way to cripple a child's natural intuitive abilities. We need to teach children to discern a trustworthy adult from a suspicious one, not lump them all together as dangerous. So when she finds herself in real need she won't just lower her head and try to become invisible (just what a perpetrator might want), but reaches out to the nice older lady or the laughing man playing with his son and gets out of trouble that way.
This crazy culture is still so fixated on "minding our own business" and "looking the other way" that we sacrifice our own children. Children can't survive that way. "It takes a village" is a catchy phrase, but who in this culture trusts anyone else in their "village?"
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
If solutions come from empathy, and the problem is the criminal, I suppose we should be more empathetic towards the criminal. Right?
Mmmmmmmm
Empathetic towards the criminal
or
Empathetic to the victims / future victims.
The Criminal is self proven damaged goods. Do
what you can to try to fix him/her, but also make
absolutely sure he/she cannot produce any more
Victims.
The Victim needs as much empathy as we can give
to prevent him/her turning into a criminal. Use
what you learn from trying to fix the criminals
to aid in this very important endevour. If it
does'nt work and the victim turns into a criminal
then treat them as a criminal.
The Future Victim is the most important one.
Their innocence is not yet destroyed. Everything
must be done to protect them.
Am I a Lion?... No, I think I'ma tellin' the truth.
BarnStormer
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