Can you still watch The Terminator? Or T2? Or (eek!) T3?

POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 18:34
VIEWED: 9746
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CHRISISALL

Monday, May 16, 2005 12:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:

I wonder about this. I'm still trying to fathom the logic behind the latest incarnation of Batman?

Why?

Old answer. Deniro, mi amigo.
Next we will get
'Buffy: the kindergarden years'.
'Peter at 13; before the arachnid angst'
'Teenage Cobb: rebel without a Vera'
'Krypton'

I should work for Faux Chrisisall

OPUS

Monday, May 16, 2005 12:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Opus, I see the first one as being the only one even remotely possible.
For John to send Kyle back to protect Sarah, Kyle, by necessity, could not have been his father IN THE ORIGINAL TIMELINE.

I decided to comment about your timeline idea. John could not exist without Kyle as his father, regardless of any timeline.
The only way John would not exist is if the machines never came to power, thus negating the reason to send someone back in time to protect Sarah.
John's very existance and the machines rise to power are inseperable.
Older John would know that sending Kyle back basically would just ensure his own conception. John knows what happens, what they did wrong in the past, (the events in T2 and T3 ) and could have very easily armed Kyle with the knowledge of how to stop the rise of the machines,or for that matter the reprogramed Arnolds.
But he didn't.
Which leaves the question, was older John really trying to help his mother and mankind, or just protecting his own ass by withholding information?

Did I read that right chrisisall? Did you work for Troma?

Opus

"as useless as a crotchless chastity belt"

CHRISISALL

Monday, May 16, 2005 1:57 AM

Yeah, I was a stuntman in Toxic Avenger 4: Citizen Toxie. I'm visible as the only guy hurled over a wall by Toxie in a four way splitscreen during a fight scene; I'm also a policeman in the car chase driving the chase car.
But the timeline thing: John would have to be born first, before he could send anyone back for anything, therefore someone else beside Reese must have been his father in the ORIGINAL timeline, as Reese hadn't gone back in time before that. In the timeline WE see in Terminator, Reese replaces that 'someone'. Any other answer doesn't make logical sense (that I'M aware of). John was trying to keep the timeline from being disrupted, well, too much, anyway.
Now my brain hurts.

Time and Terminators wait for no man Chrisisall

OPUS

Monday, May 16, 2005 4:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
But the timeline thing: John would have to be born first, before he could send anyone back for anything, therefore someone else beside Reese must have been his father in the ORIGINAL timeline, as Reese hadn't gone back in time before that. In the timeline WE see in Terminator, Reese replaces that 'someone'. Any other answer doesn't make logical sense (that I'M aware of). John was trying to keep the timeline from being disrupted, well, too much, anyway.
Now my brain hurts.

It's like that old puzzle..if you went back in time and killed your grandfather, then you would never have been born...but if you had never been born how could you have gone back and killed him?
It's a paradox.
The ORIGINAL timeline, if Kyle never came back, doesn't automatically mean John had been sired by a different father. Without Kyle he NEVER existed.
The terminator could never succeed, if he did then the reason for him even going to the past never exists, which means he would never go back in time to begin with.
Which means Sarah or John wouldn't have been killed which then means he would have gone back in time...........AAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!

Opus

THEDARKSHAPE

Monday, May 16, 2005 4:26 AM

I like the bits of discussion going on in this thread.

One thing I loved about Terminator 2 was its "No fate but what we make" message, and I was sorry to see it go (in fact, my mother, who actually enjoyed T3 quite a bit for what it was, won't watch the film again because it did away with that bit). That said, it was never the series' original agenda. The message Reese passes on to Sarah in The Terminator is nothing like what it eventually becomes in Judgment Day.

YT

Monday, May 16, 2005 6:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dragonwine:
Aside From Bill Paxton let's not forget Lance Henrickson!

But was Lance ever killed by Jayne? Bill Paxton was (OK, by Adam Baldwin) in Next of Kin.

Keep the Shiny Side Up . . . (wutzon) Stones, "Satisfaction"

THESOMNAMBULIST

Monday, May 16, 2005 9:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Yeah, I was a stuntman in Toxic Avenger 4: Citizen Toxie. I'm visible as the only guy hurled over a wall by Toxie in a four way splitscreen during a fight scene; I'm also a policeman in the car chase driving the chase car.

Still waiting for Toxic 4, to be released here in UK on DVD. I think it's imminent Big C. Really looking forward to catching your stunt work :)

Righto Timline thingy:

This is never easy without diagrams and serious amounts of coffee, but lets give it a whirl.

As I understand it (and this is just my interpretation) we each have a timeline. Therefore it's quite possible to go back in time and kill your grandfather and still exsist, because the current timeline that you possess is set and continues. However a new timline where you're grandfather is dead has now also been created and the consequences there off will manifest itself in a new 'History' so to speak. But you still excist.

So in terms of John Connor I find it's best to look at it this way. If you follow Reese' timeline first rather than John Connors then it can take shape. Of course then you have to wonder why he'd need to go back in the first place if there was no John Connor..... Oh man there's now that need for the coffee I was talking about....

The
Somnambulist

www.cirqus.com

FRAY101

Monday, May 16, 2005 10:14 AM

O J Simpson was another possibility to play The Terminator....

My brain always hurts too much when I think about this, so I'll take the cowards way out and post a link to an article I just found:

http://www.mjyoung.net/time/terminat.html

Shall now get back to sulking about how James Cameron abandoned the lovely Michael Biehn for (the admittedly brilliant!) Bill Paxton in his later works...

(Edited to add: doing this quickly while at work - just realised the article was written pre-T3 but should still give you enough anomolies to ponder...)

"Why would I want to leave Serenity?"
"Can't think of a reason."

Over 100 Serenity screencaps now available at www.destinything.com (yep, bought me a proper name!)

MANWITHPEZ

Monday, May 16, 2005 12:43 PM

Yep, that's the website I sent Chrisisall when we were talking about this before. For my money, I think The Terminator is an excellent movie...quite possibly my favorite Science Fiction film of all time. It was original for the most part, it was moody. The hero was filthy, and mean to his charge, the villain seemed to have every advantage over them, and still they came out on top. Its a slick movie, made to look like something very grubby. Originality. That's why I prefer The Terminator to The Matrix. To me, The Matrix was just The Terminator with a holodeck.

I didn't enjoy Terminator 2 as much, because their wasn't as much story pushed forward as I would've liked. It was more like watching the first one again, with more money and better effects. I did like the idea that Skynet was still deisgning and refining their Terminators. But, I didn't like that they had a prototype. Its designed by machines...shouldn't it work coming out of the box? Robert Patrick was soooooo good in that movie though. And you know what they say about Skynet...whatever model number the Terminator is, then they have warehouses full of them! So, Cyberdine Systems Model 101...All look like Arnold...Model 102 would look like someone completely different...Maybe there's a warehouse full of Kristina Lokkens somewhere...

Which brings me to Terminator 3 and the glaring error of Skynet still being able to assert itself after John, Sarah, and the second T-800 destroy Cyberdine Systems. In the Dean Koontz book Lightning, there is a phrase that applies here..."Destiny struggles to reassert the pattern that was meant to be." A comforting thought, if you ever happen to build a time machine and go mucking about in history. According to the third T-800, Judgement Day can not be averted by any means. Only postponed. A unique way of looking at things, I thought. I did not enjoy this movie, where the things that were meant to frighten and thrill us in the first two, were played for laughs here. T-800 heads into a strip joint...please! I also didn't mind Edward Furlong being gone, because I know why he was missing, and if I'm right, then I would rather have the new actor. That kid...I can't remember his name, is a very good actor, I think. I did enjoy Claire Danes in this film as well...There is a passing resemblance between her and Linda Hamilton that I didn't notice till I saw her in this film. But, Terminator 3...bad idea! Don't get me started on the proposed fourth film...

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

MANWITHPEZ

Monday, May 16, 2005 12:51 PM

John has to exist first without Kyle being his father, in some way...some way that we are not shown. A man named Kyle Reese shows up to Sarah Connor one night in 1984, tells her he was sent by her son, John Connor. Kyle then sleeps with Sarah, Sarah becomes pregnant with a son she names John, and as we know, begins training him to become a strategic and military leader. Whether or not the John we see in T2 is the same John that sent Kyle back...(We know it is, Arnold says so) becomes secondary, and we know that this John Connor will still fulfill his role as a military leader. This does not necessarily mean that Kyle HAD to be the first John's father. We are never shown him. Kyle is sent back to save Sarah...the first John may not have known that Kyle would sleep with her. Afterwards, the new John does know, and must send Kyle back, or he will never be born...This does not mean that A John Connor will never be born. One has already been born independent of Kyle Reese already. Kyle also imparts key information about the war, and what role Sarah's son will play in it. As well as a bit of weapons training, and the forititude to carry on. Something normal 1984 Sarah may not have had the ability to do prior.

And, I'm rambling...

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

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