I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore
POSTED BY: JCKnife
UPDATED: Thursday, August 17, 2023 17:53
VIEWED: 13532
PAGE 5 of 12
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
So you believe in assisted suicide?
Yes, I believe anybody who doesn't wanna be here bad enough that they have to make the point by hurting innocent folk should be 'assisted'(as politely as possible).
Don't necessarily have to kick 'em through an engine , but...Chrisisall
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Chris, I know you're trying to make a point, but its so hyperbolic it doesn't even connect with reality.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Yes, let us consider this folksy little homily:Quote:I take it you've never thought deeply about animal behavior, not even the common jay's. Like a lot of other animals, a jay's 'attack' is simply bluster, and it works most of the time. But when push comes to shove, in the face of a determined marauder, the jay will abandon its chicks (or nest or eggs) to a squirrel, rat, cat, bear, crow, human or anything else. It will not defend either nest, eggs, or chicks to the death.
"I take it you've never gotten too near a blue jay nest when there are chicks in it. A half pound bird that will attack a human 300 times its size is definately trying to protect its young."
Your own words go FAR beyond the immediate need for self-defense.)Quote:
People who decide to violate the social contract in major ways (money-lending? that prohibition was once a major part of the social contract) forfeit major portions of their value (as "value" means right to live) (RUN FOR YOUR LIVES ! Geezer has determined you have forfeited your value in major ways!)
People are the sum of their actions. Some lose a lot of points by what they do. (And are liable to be killed at leisure by the better people?)
The converse of rights is responsibilities. (Where is that in the constitution or the bible? Just curious.) Fail badly enough in your responsibilities to your fellows, and your rights are lost. (And you shall perish from this earth. So sayeth Geezer)
...
Geezer,
If you could come up with an argument not based on hyperbole or faux 'folksy' wisdom, perhaps these topics could get the intelligent discussion they deserve.
I'm afraid that you added the hyperbole (in your parentheses above). When people violate the social contract, they forfeit some of their rights, not necessarily by forfeiting their lives, but by losing their freedom (jail), their money or property (fines or confiscation), or their social standing (child molester listing, bad press?). In most cases, this forfeiture involves some sort of due process. Only in the extreme should deadly force be applied.
And it may be that I'm just all starry-eyed preferring to imagine I live in a world where parents will sacrifice for their children rather than just writing them off and cranking out another one. But that world sort of militates against your "all lives have equal value" idea by valuing children less than parents. Not a place I want to be.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
But by your own logic, ignoring the point about loving your enemies and "let he who is without sin" and the OTHER point about "Vengeance is MINE, said the Lord" and ... yada yada... and just looking at the Old Testament commandments- even if it said "You shall not murder"- what could be more "murderous" than deliberately taking a prisoner's life? Everything I know about the legal and Biblical definition of the word "murder" (premeditated and intentional) would definitely prohibit executions.
I noted above that I have problems with the death penalty. I really do. I know that doesn't fit your preconceptions of anyone who dares disagree with you, but there it is.
The issue here is alternatives. What do you do with folks that are just too much of a danger to society? That for whatever reason can't be cured or rehabilitated? Saying we will not execute this type of person requires us to answer a lot of other questions about what to do with them.
What to do with the four year olds mentioned above who are already on track to be sociopaths? Should you pre-emptively deal with them, or wait until they commit a crime? Is it a violation of their rights to assume that they will go bad and force some sort of treatment on them?
It's always easy to say "This is bad, that is bad". Coming up with workable alternatives is this hard part.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:
Hussein fils were responsible for their actions, regardless of their antecedents, and got what they deserved.
Then the current Pope Benedict XVI is responsible for being a Hitler Youth and should never have been elevated.
Edited to add: Sorry for the multiple posts, but you guys provide such a RICH field of inconsistencies that's it's hard to ignore all those little gems. Hope you understand.
Ah, but he rose above his antecedents and became a different and better man (assumng you believe that head of the Inquisition's follow-on organization is better than the Hitler Youth
). If Uday & Co. had left Iraq and become something else, say ACLU lawyers, they would have done the same. Instead, they stayed and wallowed in an orgy of robbery, rape, and murder."Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
You know, I hate to do this but I have one LAST point and then I swear to God I'll stop!
Geezer, I noticed you sort of gave up on all of the other examples I presented and focused on Uday and Qusay. Does that mean you buy the "diminished capacity" defense?
To a point. A person of "diminished capacity", be it from post-partum depression or PCP, who kills five people has still killed five people. They need to be prevented from killing any more, whether by prison or institutionalization. A parole board or medical review board needs to err on the side of caution before letting these people go.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Chris, I know you're trying to make a point, but its so hyperbolic it doesn't even connect with reality.
Reality: If I ever went crazy enough to attack someone for pleasure, profit, or 'cause a little voice in my head said it was the thing to do, I'd WANT someone to assist me off this planet- in a hurry! If I was ever made sane enough to realize what I had done through doctors or therapy, the burden of it would make me kill myself, anyhow.
Once you step over certain lines, there's no coming back.
But there's always next time 'round. It could be a better one.
Harsh Buddah Chrisisall
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Quote:
It's always easy to say "This is bad, that is bad". Coming up with workable alternatives is this hard part.
But I already have, so I don't see why we're still on this point. Lifetime in prison. Study the h*ll out of them... I mean, there you are with a whole abnormal population at your disposal- fMRI, PET scans, neuropsych tests, heavy-metal tests... as long as the proposed studies are peer-reviewed and wil be published in peer-reviewed journals and meet informed consent. See how many fit various diagnoses. Try various treatments on them- education, antidepressants, cognitive therapy and so forth. In time, you should be able to figure out how people got this way and how it can best be prevented and treated.
Did you know that the prison population is already used for the initial parts of many drugs tests (testing for safety, as opposed to testing for efficacy?)
Quote:
If Uday & Co. had left Iraq
Benedict XVI didn't have to "leave" the Hitler Youth, it dissolved around him. I'm not sure how much moral fiber he would have shown had the Nazi regime continued. I assume that, like most German youth, he would have progressed from there to the Army or possibly the SS. Uday and Qusay... have you read anything about their lives? It was a nightmare of psychological torture- extreme punishment, extreme reward, living in fear for their lives and being forced to kill. Their whole worldview was warped by Saddam, and they never had an opportunity to gain another perspective.
My FIL was a sadist, and I don't mean that figuratively. He loved to hurt ppl. But, his upbringing was an absusive nightmare, and then he was rounded up by the Nazis when he was just a kid and forced into labor, chained to a munitions cart like a donkey while being strafed. Kids who are subject to fear and pain actually develop different brain structures than kids who aren't. It was an experience he apparently couldn't overcome, and it killed him. (Long story.)
As far as those four y/os are concerned- their parents need training and support in how to help these kids learn better impulse control. 90% of kids can be raised by 90% of parents, but there are SOME kids that need special parenting. The training and techniques are available and well-known and work for MOST kids.
Most of your points are non-issues as far as I can tell. The only thing it would take is money. But since we just blew $300 Billion (that's Billion, with a "B") on Iraq for "security" reasons, I assume we're willing to spend that much on crime, which really affects far more Americans than Iraq ever did.
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Ok, I didn't have time to read the entire thread, but I definitly agree that something more should be done to curb this whole thing.
That being said, I really think that you guys (I assume you're in the US) should think about having reasonable laws that say who is and who isn't a sex offender.
ie I was watching highschool stories on MTV and two guys streaked for a senoir prank. They were charged with second degree felony which was in the catagory of sex crime. Rediculous.
And because I know that there can be radical differents between state laws, there should be a federal standard of what a sex crime is... that is reasonable. ie Raping, reasonable def'n. Streaking, not reasonable def'n.
----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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Geezer:
Quote:
GEEZER: I'm afraid that you added the hyperbole (in your parentheses above)
Quote:THESE ARE YOUR WORDS - nothing added. This is not my hyperbole, it's YOURS. Stop lying.
People who decide to violate the social contract in major ways forfeit major portions of their value (as "value" means right to live).
So tell me Geezer, how does it feel to be pathological?
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