Mal lost his faith...

POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Monday, May 16, 2005 21:36
VIEWED: 6993
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BATMARLOWE

Saturday, March 26, 2005 6:26 PM

Seems to me Mal expects the same kind of loyalty from his crew that he gives them. And if one of them betrays him it cuts Mal to the quick. I can see Mal letting Jayne die out of a need to protect the rest of the crew (the crew being the only thing Mal has faith in [especially Kaylee]). However if Mal had dropped Jayne off somewhere, do you think Jayne would have wanted revenge against Mal or maybe learned his lesson? That he jeopardized the closest thing he had to a family. Just food for thought.

NOOCYTE

Saturday, March 26, 2005 7:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by batmarlowe:
....However if Mal had dropped Jayne off somewhere, do you think Jayne would have wanted revenge against Mal or maybe learned his lesson? That he jeopardized the closest thing he had to a family. Just food for thought.

Interesting question. I don't think Jayne is introspective enough to put that together. If Mal had dropped him off, my suspicion is that Jayne would have become something of a Big Bad (well...maybe a Mid Bad...well, bad, anyway). I think he would have turned his sadness and shame into rage, and acted to try and defeat Mal for giving up on him.

Of course, he would not have succeeded, being far less subtle than Mal, but probably would have inadvertently set events into motion which would get both Serenity's crew and himself into terrible peril. One could envision a story in which they have to act together to get out of that trouble, with Jayne ultimately Getting what Mal's been on about, with all this loyalty stuff.

Might make for a fun fic...and I hereby release the idea to anyone with the initiative to write such a fic, since I lack it.

Department of Redundancy Department

CHRISISALL

Sunday, March 27, 2005 6:46 PM

Jus' watched Ariel again, took a real hard look at Mal, and you're right. He woulda let it happen. Seems to me he made a judgement on the spot and lucky for Jayne he seemed sincere enough to give Mal the impression that he really learned something (or at least is BEGINNIN' to learn something) about loyalty on Serenity.

Case closed (for me, anyway).

Chrisisall

COVINGTON

Sunday, March 27, 2005 11:45 PM

His whole "If I ever kill you, you'll be armed and you'll be facing me" aside, I'd agree that Jayne's just too physically dangerous to keep around once he's really turned.

Plus, were he set loose, he'd sell them out the moment he could get to a communications terminal.

Interesting that Mal still trusted him with weapons. I'd bet that during the Serenity battle and aftermath, an officer would be in constant danger of getting fragged by disgruntled soldiers. He'd have some faith in his ability to know just how close Jayne is after that, perhaps.

MANWITHPEZ

Monday, March 28, 2005 2:29 PM

A number of people have posited the query "What does Mal really mean when he says 'None of it means a damn thing'" in Objects in Space. Is he talking about or to Inara, is he talking about himself, the crew, the ship, the effort to protect the Tams, River herself?
I think that "None of it means a damn thing" is representative of Mal to a point. But, I think the "discoveries" that River makes in OIS are tempered by her own feelings. River has demonstrated that she is a bit empathic, and telepathic to boot. But, with what Simon learns of what was done to her in Ariel, we learn that she cannot hide her feelings. Every emotion she has is front and center for her. So, this throws into suspect anything that she might be getting from other people. Sure, I think these are these people's thoughts, but I think River is projecting herself onto these people too. Or rather, filtering them through herself, because she is powerless to stop it. She can read your mind, but no further than how it really applies to her, or how she applies it elsewhere.
I don't think Mal's thoughts in OIS point to a dropout of faith. He would be crushed if Inara left, but I think he would manage. He managed before her, and would do so again. He's also flourished in the face of ultimate defeat at the hands of his hated enemies. He took what he could from his experiences in Serenity Valley, and made a business...borderline business, but enough to get by on without someone looking over his shoulder, which is just the way he likes it.

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

CHRISISALL

Monday, March 28, 2005 8:44 PM

I think " None of it means a damn thing.." was just one of those momentary dark thoughts you have when you're not using that "thought filter" we all have, the thing that tells us whether we're just having a reaction to something, or whether it's something we truly believe. Just for a second, lost in the idea that Inara, someone he has come to care for more than he'd intended, was leaving brought to that bottom level, a place we visit but hopefully don't live in.
River was just picking up the most intense feelings in the air during that walk through the ship, I believe.
You're right, of course, Mal would survive it, doesn't mean he wants to, though.
So everything she "heard" was absolutly true, if only a flash.

Make sense?

Or is my mouth jus' talkin'?

Chrisisall

MADRIK

Saturday, May 14, 2005 6:54 AM

Right. The lost in faith is something I've noticed. He did kiss a crucifix and he did give words of encouragement to his men relating to God. The point I thought he lost his faith was when the medic ship came in. And he put the flag or flare (I don't really remember) and something was mentioned about who's colors a ship was flying. Then God was mentioned. And Mal asked, pretty much asking himself, "Who's colors is God flying?" Ringing bells? Sorry, it's been a little while.

Other reoccurances such as Book asking, "Would you mind if I said grace?" And Mal replied, "Only if its outloud." And about how "God isn't welcome" on his boat.

And about the "Ariel" episode. That ending really affected me. That was VERY good. You know, I don't think Mal would have let him die. I think he would have let him in. I just think its in his character. But I think he KNEW Jayne would be in regret. When he asked Mal to make something up, that expressed his shame. And that's when he closed the door. Know what I mean?

Mal's loyalty is incredible. The reason that Mal left Simon and River on that planet where they got kidnapped was because Book needed medical attention RIGHT AWAY. I seriously think Mal said "He was stupid enough to get himself captured" was just a ploy to seem stronger. He of course went back for them. He KNEW that Simon and River wouldn't last out there. Get what I'm saying? I'm tired...

"She's a witch!"
"Yeah, but she's our witch."

SERGEANTX

Saturday, May 14, 2005 8:45 AM

The whole faith issue was one of the most fascinating themes in the series. It was really the central theme of Jaynestown as well as an recurring theme throughout.

The parallel but inverse story arcs of Mal and Book were really going to get interesting I think (can I get a GORRAMN FOX?). It was obvious that Mal's experiences in the war had turned him against his faith. It was also hinted strongly that Book had done, or seen, something (also perhaps in the war) that had caused him to turn to faith for redemption. I'm wondering if either of their conversions would have 'stuck' in the long run.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

CHRISISALL

Saturday, May 14, 2005 1:35 PM

I got the feelin' Book would've reverted to the rather violence prone someone we got glimpses of, or at least found a middle ground. The shepard thing couldn't have worked forever and never seemed to be somethin' he had his whole heart in. Remember him cryin' in Out Of Gas?
Mal's another story. He's at a point where he's handed his 'faith' back to the outside world, and only the right persons or events will be able to give it back to him. That's why his ship is so important to him. He's created his little 'world' inside the 'Verse where people are loyal, and things make sense, a safe (in the emotional sense) place.

All-psychological and such Chrisisall

MADRIK

Saturday, May 14, 2005 7:22 PM

When the crew split up in the shuttles in 'Out Of Gas', did you see the way Jayne was looking at Malcom? Telling him about the suit he's prepped for him and everything? He took a moment and looked at him. There's definatly good in Jayne as ruthless as he seems. I'm sure Mal sees that.

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