Weapons and Tech in the Verse
POSTED BY: caul
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 02:04
VIEWED: 16919
PAGE 2 of 5
There's also some stuff in the references section of the site that you might find interesting, JCKnife. It's kind of hit and miss with the level of detail of the entries, however.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/referencelist.asp?s=weapons
http://www.fireflyfans.net/referencelist.asp?c=queue
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I'm cursed with 2 issues:
1. I love firefly
2. I'm well versed in physics and Astromomy
I want to love this show so much but when issues of spaceflight come up I grind my teeth in frustration. There are always 2 issues that Sci-Fi space faring shows are forced to deal with:
1. Light speed creates a paradox
2. Space is really really really big
I will refer to this awsome website for astronomical education for various topics on distance, physics, and the nature of the cosmos: http://www.astronomycafe.net/qadir/qanda.html#top
The sci-fi hurdle with FTL drives is always the vastness of space combined with the paradox of lightspeed. Over the years, various shows have dealt with this issue in varying ways:
*Trek creates a sub-space bubble, then applies Warp (the wobble image of the enterprise prior to warp was supposed to be the creation of the sub space around the ship)
*Star Wars uses Hyperspace
*Dune folds space through the use of the Spice
*Andromeda(ugly show) used slipstream (artifical wormholes)
*Stargate positions gates with space folding attributes but only allows X amount of mass to pass at one time.
*Other stories have used the concept of "outspace" saying that a parallel universe to ours is accessable and that a minor movement there equates to a greater movement here. So you jump "out" travel a short distance then jump back "in" thousands of light years from your start point.
The problem with Firefly is that it never got away from the good 'ole fusion drive. Joss was asked several times about the means of space travel in the 'verse and his reply was always that he never really thought too hard about it but that it was certainly fusion and that the backwash in space we see after ships fly off(the wake) was residue from a fusion burn.
If you ever watched Carl Sagan's opus "Cosmos" from 1980, you'll remember that the ability to craft a fusion driven spacecraft is well within out current technology. For those of you wondering why we don't have fusion power plants on the earth, be certain you understand the difference between CONTROLLED fusion (power plant reactor) and UNCONTROLLED fusion (H bomb). A fusion Drive spacecraft is meerly a ship that fuses hydrogen atoms into Helium atoms and releases a tremendous quantity of energy in the process. This produces the equivalent of an uncontrolled fusion reaction that pushes a spacecraft forward through space. Thus "Wash...go for hard burn" is a fusion drive. I recall when I 1st watched the pilot and witnessed the escape from the reavers I was in utter shock. The hard burn in the Whitefall atmosphere is nothing less than an H-Bomb for the planet's surface. You can even see the mushroom cloud pattern of radiating fire in the top-down view. Ultra cool Joss....ultra cool.
But the big issue isn't the use of fusion at the planetary level...it's going from star system to star system. Space is vast. How vast? Well alpha centuri, the closest star to earth, is about 3.4 light years from us. With a fusion drive, current estimates are that we could travel up to 20% the speed of light. A trip to Alpha Centuri would still take thousands of years. It is possible to continue to accelerate if we'd have enough fuel, but as we approach 80% light speed, relitivity kicks in and although we arrive within our lifetimes the folks at home are much older. If you are interested in a true scientific paper on fusion drive technology go here: http://www.ibiblio.org/lunar/school/InterStellar/Explorer_Class/Bussar
d_Fusion_systems.HTML If you have a real science background this paper will astonish you.
Firefly maintains that humanity has colonized a portion of the Milky Way. If I recall correctly, the marketers who typed the text on the DVD box set imply that the Galaxy has been nearly explored, but working in marketing is about as far from an astronomy career as one can get. I seriously hate to think that humanity has been everywhere in the galaxy. In 400 years it would be totally impossible to visit and explore 200,000,000,000 star systems. In ca
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I've been meaning to start a thread like this my own self for fan fic purposes - thanks Caul for getting the ball rolling!
Quote:
Originally posted by thiefjehat:
I'm cursed with 2 issues:
1. I love firefly
2. I'm well versed in physics and Astromomy
I want to love this show so much but when issues of spaceflight come up I grind my teeth in frustration. There are always 2 issues that Sci-Fi space faring shows are forced to deal with:
1. Light speed creates a paradox
2. Space is really really really big
I will refer to this awsome website for astronomical education for various topics on distance, physics, and the nature of the cosmos: http://www.astronomycafe.net/qadir/qanda.html#top will be conducting some in-depth research - I'd dearly love to find a theory that works realistically and doesn't involve dilithium or some such... what about cold fusion?Quote:Actually, all that's said on that point is that they went out and found a whole bunch of new earths. Doesn't say how long it took, how far they went, or anything like that. Some of those "new earths" had to be terra formed for human habitation, remember - probably more than some, and not all with the shiniest of results.
thiefjehat said
Firefly maintains that humanity has colonized a good portion of the Milky Way.
My thought is that Joss kept that piece deliberately vague so as not to get bogged down working out the history of it all. He wasn't writing Dune or Star Wars, after all. And I also think that the mythology/genology of Slayers and their Watchers got manufactured as Buffy and Angel progressed. I doubt Joss meant for it to get as complicated as it did. He probably meant for the Firefly "timeline" to be developed the same way - as he went along. Unfortunately, 13 episodes isn't enough for that.
So my theory is this: Earth, in desperation because the planet was in dramatic decline, funded some heavy R&D into space travel. This facilitated a significant discovery of some fashion with regard to fusion, enabling humans to reach distances in space that was heretofore unheard of. THEN, it could be very likely that we got uber-ambitious within those 400 years or so, found a single solar system with several planets that either suited our needs, or had moons that would do in a pinch.Quote:I think you and I are unanimous in this. I'd say even less than 10% though - more like a fraction of a percent. You can pick your own number, because as you said, space is really really really big.
thiefjehat said
I hate to think that humanity has been everywhere in the galaxy though. In 400 years it would be totally impossible to visit and explore 200,000,000,000 star systems. I like to think that in the 'verse, humanity has been to about 10% of our spirial arm and that a small few kept flying until they passed beyond the galactic rim and came back savage(reavers).
And don't take this the wrong way, but your very shiny facts are based on science that is currently known. We don't know what discoveries could be made in the future. Another Einstein could already have been born and well on his or her way to bringing the Firefly 'verse to fruition. Look at how fast we went from computers that filled warehouses to the kind that fits in your hand - and that's just a miniscule example.Quote:... YET.
thiefjehat said
But what [Joss] needs to do (or us perhaps) is explain how the craft travels at FTL via a fusion drive and does not violate special relativity. Remember SW has hyperspace, trek has subspace. Firefly has nothing.
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As interesting as this is, you guys do know it is just a TV show/movie, right?!? It's in the script.
Just messing around with you.
ByteTheBullet (-:
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Quote:
Originally posted by ByteTheBullet:
Regarding the weapons used, I like to think they have picked the weapon(s) that suits them best. I choose higher capacity newer caliber guns, but older guns still have a prominent place with shooters today, like wheel guns and even crappy 1911s.
We did see laser and wave-force weapons the series. They are/were available, just not everyone had one.
Btw, the 1911s(.45 autos) model number is referring to the date of the design. They have been around a long time. Also, .45 autos are NOT automatic(machine gun) they are autoloaders.
End of gun lessons.
Quote:*eyebrow raising*
You also said:
As interesting as this is, you guys do know it is just a TV show/movie, right?!? It's in the script.
*JUST* a show, is it? So... WHY are you bothering to straighten out our thought processes about the weapons?
To that end, you wouldn't happen to have any notions on what that *extra* sound is when Mal pulls his hand gun? Aside from a post-production sound add-in, of course. Actually, finding out what was used to actually MAKE the sound we hear would be harder to do than hypothosizing about what it coule be.
But then it's just a show, isn't it?
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Quote:
Originally posted by Channain:
my theory is this: Earth, in desperation because the planet was in dramatic decline, funded some heavy R&D into space travel. This facilitated a significant discovery of some fashion with regard to fusion, enabling humans to reach distances in space that was heretofore unheard of. THEN, it could be very likely that we got uber-ambitious within those 400 years or so, found a single solar system with several planets that either suited our needs, or had moons that would do in a pinch.
1st let me say Channain, your posts are always insightful. Whether on firefly or buffy or whatever. Love to read them.
To expand on fan fic and world building for an RPG, history is also a big part of things MY theory on 'verse history is this:
Sometime in our near 21st and early 22nd century future things are going to get very bad on this planet. The ecosystem that has been in a happy balance for over 1,000,000,000 years will be derailed by continued burning of fossil fuels and the destruction of ecological balancing factors(vegetation) as humans sprawl out across the planets surface. By the time the problem is in everyones face it'll be too late to reverse and the Earth will be slowly transforming itself into something akin to Venus. (1000F surface temp, toxic atmo). Also, most resources humanity requires will become scarcer and scarcer as the population gobbles up the planet.
At this time there will be two social-economic Powers left on the Earth. America and China. Deep space planet hunting telescopes(that in fact are in construction right now) will locate star systems in our stellar neighborhood that possess planets that could support life. As has been proven in our history, when humans face demise they unite. A multi-national tech race begins 350 years before firefly (mid-2100's) to create propulsion devices that could reach these nearby stars. 325 years before firefly China is the 1st to found a new homeworld called Sihnon (circa 2192). America soon follows up with Londinum (wouldn't YOU like to be the king of all Londinum and wear a shiney hat?). These two planets will become the core capitals of space faring humanity. Earth is left behind and largely forgotten. As Mal would say, Earth-that-was got used up.
from 300 to 200 years before firefly (2200-2300) the english and asian cultures slowly unite under one governmental establishment called the Anglo-Signo Alliance. In these years the first new planets are colonized. These 1st planets get shiney names of gods and mythological people. Hera, Osiris, Persephone, Ariel, ect. Later such planets constitute core worlds. Around 150 years before firefly it becomes a hassle to come up with new shiney names for hundreds and hundreds of worlds as the sphere of expansion around Sihnon/Londinum continues. This is when folk start putting mundane names on planets. Triumph, Shadow, Whitefall,...whatever. Look on a map of whatever state you live in and start reading the names of those towns with small dots. I live in Indianapolis but nearby my map shows towns with all kinds of wierd names. Bluff Creek, Boggstown, Beanblossom...and hundreds of others. Thus begins the settling of rim worlds.
Around 100 years before Firefly (early 2400's) the social/economic system of the core begins to evolve into something akin to the Parliament/East Indiana Company/Nobility relationship of 17th/18th century England. This comes in the form of Alliance Government/Blue Sun/Nobility. The nobility is born out of those people who achieve great wealth and start family legacies. Corporations emerge on Core worlds, one of the largest which is Blue Sun...sort of a combo of Microsoft, Proctor&Gamble, and Lockheed Martin. Both of these entities operate under the umbrella of the Alliance Government but since they control the wealth they begin to influence and control the government to their own interests. Thus corporate and noble agendas begin to corrupt and direct the government.
At the same time as this evolution is o
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Quote:Slipstream isn't artificial wormholes (you may be thinking of Babylon 5' jump gates/points).
Originally posted by thiefjehat:
*Andromeda(ugly show) used slipstream (artifical wormholes)
Slipstream (like Firefly's system) was never fully explained. We only know a few things: Only organic minds can navigate it (no androids/AIs). Frequently-used slip-paths become shorter (say, between Sinti and San-Ska-Re, two heavily-populated "core" worlds), while unused paths (between Earth and San-Ska-Re) are longer.
It doesn't really relate to real space, but seems to involve collapsing probabilities (perhaps it's based on the improbability drive of HGttG). You navigate it by knowing where you're going (pick a destination) and making choices at "decision points" (like forks in the road). organic minds choose right 75-99% of the time. AIs average around 23%. Nobody knows why. Some people have speculated that the slipstream is the mind of God (and, being natural life forms, organics are naturally attuned to the correct paths). The stream connects points in space, but they're all jumbled up. I can enter slipstream near Earth, fly around for a half-hour, and end up at Proxima Centauri. Or I could zip along for two seconds and end up in the Triangulum Galaxy. As you can imagine, getting lost is a Very Bad Thing.
It's also apparently possible to cut a world off from slipstream; Tarn-Vedra (centre of the Commonwealth) "disappeared" about 300 years before the show's present. Presumeably the system still exists, but no slipstream route will reach it (the ones that used to work now lead to different locations). It'd take several thousand years for anyone to get any kind of signal there (Andromeverse commucation is at lightspeed, so it's far more effective to use couriers), let alone a slower-than-light ship.
Quote:Andromeda's Systems Commonwealth stretched across three galaxies (the "Known Worlds"), but like I said, it's all 'cause of slipstream's profoundly bizarre rules.
The only world system that says it colonized an entire galaxy, and I believe, is the star wars verse where intelligent life history goes back for well over 100,000 years and hyperspace tech exists.
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We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.
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Quote:Why... thank you...and my I say the same to you.
Originally posted by thiefjehat:
1st let me say Channain, your posts are always insightful. Whether on firefly or buffy or whatever. Love to read them.
Quote:And what follows is the most well-written, insightful and thoroughly thought out timeline I've seen. You know, with an outline as shiny as that, you have to be writing something somewhere. Right?
Originally posted by thiefjehat:
To expand on fan fic and world building for an RPG, history is also a big part of things MY theory on 'verse history is this...
Do you mind if I keep this in my own background files? I haven't been able to read it all through yet. Need to think on some of it awhile.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Channain:
You know, with an outline as shiny as that, you have to be writing something somewhere. Right?
Nope. I'm not much of a writer. Just a very intense thinker. My background is scientific and engineering related. Sci-Fi intrests stem from my gravition to storytelling. This in turn leads to comics, RPGs, world building in general.
I'd be better placed in a think tank for world building consistancy issues for a sci-fi TV show than in writing character relationships. I've tried my hand at writing a story and frankly, I suck. My talents are not in introducing and developing themes.
You know, if you want another lengthy essay I can talk about my analysis of how Book fits into the Unification War. Plus there's the secrets Inara is keeping too. Both those subjects are found in various other threads on this site.
There are several things I would like to further flesh out in the verse
*compile and explain all the mechanical tech we hear about, mostly from Kaylee (Compression Coils, Catylizers, Port Pinlocks, ect..) This has already been done to a minor extent by Haken on this site here: http://www.fireflyfans.net/referencelist.asp?s=engineering but I'd like to go further with it.
*Further explore how Blue Sun Perminates every single person and forward my theory that people in the verse are being implanted with nano tech by Blue Sun
*How the Companion Guild came to be, how it is organized, and come to an understanding of guild law.
*Flesh out the monetary system of the verse. Mal gets paid in platinum by patience. What good is metal wealth in the future?
There are many other things too
And sure you can save my stuff for your work, I don't mind.
Do not fear me. Ours is a peaceful race, and we must live in harmony.
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Quote:
riginally posted by ByteTheBullet:
...even crappy 1911s.
I know you did not just call 1911s "crappy"...
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