The Reaver Breed

POSTED BY: christhecynic
UPDATED: Thursday, May 5, 2005 14:01
VIEWED: 9188
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GUNRUNNER

Saturday, April 30, 2005 6:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
I have been told that the German language has one of the smallest vocabularies of modern languages. If this is true I find it hard to believe that it is a coincidence that Germans, who show no evidence of being inherently smarter than other human beings, have been on whole the best engineers of the recent century.

Well the Germans certainly know how to put ideas together but the Americans know how to make huge, complex and reliable pieces of equipment.

Recently the US has been lagging behind in things like education and it shows in what we produce but for most of the last century American equipment was some of the best around and most copied.

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DORAN

Saturday, April 30, 2005 9:02 PM

There is approximately one mutation in about every 100000 births for humans. Most of these mutations either have no impact on the gene pool or are deleterious in nature. The "new breed" theory runs in to trouble when we look at the relatively few number of years they have been out there in space, maybe 500 years. Some changes could be accounted for by selection in the culture.. but not enough in 500 years to make them a new breed.

One possible caveat would be that something they eat or someplace they go could account for causing abnormal mutation counts to occur; this coupled with selection might cause this change... maybe. The only thing is that to achieve this, they would have to have extremely high birth rates.. Populations would have to grow faster than earth rodents.

CHRISTHECYNIC

Sunday, May 1, 2005 11:07 PM

Remember what I said in the first post about Reavers not having enough time to evolve? Guess not. I was not talking about mutation, nor evolution, I was talking about breeding.

If hemophiliacs bleed to death before they can breed hemophiliacs how long do you think it would take for them to die out?

If certain people have genetics that make them physically weaker do you think they will last long enough to breed? Only if they find a way to compensate, and that could be genetic.

Breeding has nothing to do with mutations, it has to do with preexisting genetics and the selection of one trait over another.

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So, since this has nothing to do with evolution, can we get off the damn evolution thing?

I admit that I got just as side-tracked, but can we all stop that now and get back to the topic?

GREENFAERIE

Monday, May 2, 2005 12:31 AM

Very intriguing ideas here. Just playing Devil's advocate...

Quote:
Originally posted by ReaverMadness:
1) It was said (no I don't have the qoutes) that Reavers were once (or are) men. Perhaps too long from civilization, but men. No special breed here. Those types of comments along with the fact that Joss has elected to show no "aliens" (non human) should stomp on that line of thought.

NO ALIENS only encourages the idea that there are more breeds of human. Space is big, and life adapts to new environments. A few hundred years of breeding/inbreeding can produce a new breed. This has been shown with dog breeding, and can be applied to humans as well. Currently there are several "breeds" of man: we call them races.

Quote:
2) Some have said: "Don't forget, the Reavers don't use radiation shielding on their ships." That ship was a reaver ship the way a pirate ship is a pirate ship. Not 'cause they made it. 'cause they took it. Remember: they are running without containment... that's suicide... THat doesn't leave room to think that it is low dose radiation... but deadly ammount. So no good (controlled) sort of mutations going on here.
That sort of behavior alsao limits the thoughts about a breeding class or any real type of family type units. They just wouldn't live long enough.

Agreed about the radiation and mutations. But it has not been determined that ALL Reaver ships are full of radiation. It has only been determined that the Reavers are suicidal enough to fly at least one ship without radiation protection. This has no bearing on the possibility of a breeding or caste system.

Quote:
I tend to think that the reavers are sort of like pirates with a liberal ammount of headhunter thrown in. From the episode where we learn how that one person "became" a reaver may idicate this as well. That could be the very way they propagate. Through induction...

So far we have only seen one such induction. If the average of one per ship attacked is the norm, this might be possible if the ship capture rate is high. But that invites losses as well. It may also be very rare for this to happen, since Reavers are not known for their pity.

Quote:
...some may be just your mad dog killer types but there are also someone with brains enough to plan... So maybe, just maybe there is a mad-dog-hord class and a psycho/maniacal class.

By supporting a Class system, a society can just as easily support a breeding system. This ties in with the possibility of a breeding class. Who knows, maybe the female Reavers are a class of their own, staying at the home world/ship and raising baby Reavers.

In regard to another poster's idea that raping the crew of an attacked ship or settlement can produce Reaver offspring: doubtful. They don't just rape their victims. Their victims also end up dead, and worse.

It seems to me that Reavers expand their number in one of three ways. By assimilation, manufacture, or by a caste/class reproduction system. But I think that assimilation is not very common. Reavers are clearly ravenous creatures, and yet they form a society. Would the one example we are given of assimilation be common? What would happen if the human-turned-Reaver we know from "Bushwhacked" ran into a Reaver ship? Would he be accepted as a fellow Reaver crew member? I wonder. As an outsider, he would probably be challenged, or killed outright. In the natural world, such rogue males are often considered outcasts.

I doubt that turning a victim into a Reaver is common. People deal with such trauma in different ways. Some would no doubt turn suicidal, other become catatonic.

It is as likely that the Reavers might be "manufactured". Perhaps Blue Sun or some other evil organization is brainwashing people into becoming Reavers. This is another unlikely theory. This require tremendous resources, and the end result is an upredictable and uncontrollable product. No realistic organization would go so far as to produce its own potential downfall in the form of raiding lunatic barbarians.

I think the

CHRISTHECYNIC

Monday, May 2, 2005 1:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by GreenFaerie:
In regard to another poster's idea that raping the crew of an attacked ship or settlement can produce Reaver offspring: doubtful. They don't just rape their victims. Their victims also end up dead, and worse.

It is a common misconception that only males are capable of rape, I have no idea where that idea came from. Someone does not need to penetrate another to rape that person, they need only forcibly engage in intercourse. Women can, and do, do this. And yes, sometimes they have kids as a result.
Mal said that the Reavers might pass them by because they might have just hit someone. If that is the only way they end up leaving others alone, and they always do what Zoey says, I figure the females get pregnant as a result of raping men quite often.
Of course if they sometimes kill people first (in other words not do it in that order) the entire equation changes.

VETERAN

Monday, May 2, 2005 3:04 AM

How can you tell? They seem to have a "recruiting" or conscription routine (ala Bushwacked). There's no indications on how they handle their own young uns.

GUNRUNNER

Monday, May 2, 2005 3:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by GreenFaerie:
Would the one example we are given of assimilation be common? What would happen if the human-turned-Reaver we know from "Bushwhacked" ran into a Reaver ship? Would he be accepted as a fellow Reaver crew member? I wonder. As an outsider, he would probably be challenged, or killed outright. In the natural world, such rogue males are often considered outcasts.

I think that if the Reavers took the time to indoctrinate someone like the guy in Bushwhacked they would plan to come back. But he might not have been meant to become a Reaver but was left just be another trap (in addition to the one left on the airlock to disable the rescue ship). They leave one or two very traumatized "survivors" to distract the crew so they don't notice the trap attached to their hull or spot the Reaver ship early and run or call for help.

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DORAN

Monday, May 2, 2005 3:40 AM

"Breeding has nothing to do with mutations, it has to do with preexisting genetics and the selection of one trait over another."

No, this is not true. Your premise is off. You can't discuss genetics or selection without also discussing mutation. Ask any animal breeder. I never said anything about "evolution".

Through breeding - mutations are selected, fixed, and become mainstream genome. "Traits" are nothing more than phenotyped mutations, fixed or not.

If you are trying to say that humans already have the latent mutations to become reavers you would have to cite a historical example of a culture of selection that valued the mutations that make reavers what they are... outside of the reavers themselves of course. Otherwise were back to the 500 year period of time being too short to develop these genes without assistance.

"If hemophiliacs bleed to death before they can breed hemophiliacs how long do you think it would take for them to die out?"

Hemophilia is a deleterious mutation that was fixed by a culture that so valued the genes of their leaders that through inbreeding they inadvertently fixed these mutant genes within a number of family groups. Since we no longer value hereditary leadership or inbreeding of this sort and haven't for a few hundred years, yet still have many hemophiliac sufferers, one has to answer your question with: quite a long time. There are many among us now who carry the recessive combination of these mutant genes... and are not considered "weak".

Selection is not usually a quick change for good or ill (even during extremely controlled breeding exercises). In the short term however, cannibalism has brought such things as mad cow disease and other palsy type diseases which have nothing to do with genetics. This would tend work against selection for cannibals for at least a few hundred years.

Sorry to be a thorn in your side, but breeding and genetics is what I do. I've been doing DNA research for nearly 20 years. I'm not completely discounting what you've said.. I'm only adding that without a catalyst for mutation working with selection, 500 years is too short.

CHRISTHECYNIC

Tuesday, May 3, 2005 4:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Doran:
No, this is not true. Your premise is off.

Really?

Quote:
Through breeding - mutations are selected, fixed, and become mainstream genome. "Traits" are nothing more than phenotyped mutations, fixed or not.

Exactly what I said, read again and get a dictionary. I'm not being insulting here, just make sure it is an American dictionary. I know too well the confusions that can result from people using different definitions of the same word.

You say mutations, and if you choose to call them that that is fine, from your background I assume it is the correct term. I chose not to use it because of the words roots and original meaning. Mutation implies a change, not a deviation or a difference, but a change. That is not involved in breeding.

The fact is that these traits are not created by the breeding, they are pre-existing. Stop thinking about modern DNA research and start thinking about dogs and geraniums.

To create a new breed of dog you need not wait for new mutations to come about, you need only breed large groups and select the ones that exhibit the traits you want to create the next generation. Of course it has to do with genetics, but not changes. (Not what I would call a mutation.) We are talking about traits that exist before the time of the selection process.

Same goes for a new type of flower, a rewarding process by the way, you don’t need to wait a thousand years for mutations to emerge, you need only work with what you have.

I know of a breed of cat that can usually be effectively created in two generations* and yet it is completely different from the parent breeds in terms of abilities. The combination of traits in that breed make it completely separate from the ones used to make it even though it has no traits not found in one of those breeds.

*(It was first discovered when pets interbred with the locals, though two generations is now that people know what to look for the original process, by natural selection of an unnatural mix, took five at most.)

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As for the hemophilia bit, I just figure that bleeders won’t last long in Reaver culture, just like I figure that people with red-green colorblindness won’t last on the type of fictional bomb squad you see in movies. I have nothing against such people and was merely using an old cliché.

However, since you decided to take it seriously here’s where the cliche comes from, if hemophiliacs bled to death before they could breed more only latents would survive to pass on the affliction. In ideal simplified statistics:

For ease of calculation:
First generation ¼ male non-hemophiliacs, ¼ male hemophiliacs, 1/6 female non-hemophiliacs, 1/6 female dormant hemophiliacs and 1/6 female active hemophiliacs (7/12 hemophiliac in total)

Second generation ¼ non-hemo males, ¼ hemo males, ¼ latent hemo females, 1/8 hemo female and 1/8 non-hemo female

Third generation1/3 non-hemo male 1/6 hemo male, 1/3 non hemo female, 1/6 latent hemo female

Fourth generation 5/12 non hemo male, 1/12 hemo male, 5/12 non hemo female, 1/12 latent hemo female.

Fifth generation 11/24 non hemo male, 1/24 hemo male, 11/24 non hemo female, 1/24 latent hemo female

If we accept the traditional view that a generation is 20 years one century has just passed.
The percent of the population of hemophiliacs total has gone down from 58.3 to 8.3
The percent of non-latent hemophiliacs has dropped from 41.6 to 4.16, an order of magnitude.

Sixth generation 23/48 non hemo male, 1/48 hemo male, 23/48 non hemo female, 1/48 latent hemo female

Seventh generation 47/96 non hemo male, 1/96 hemo male, 47/96 non hemo female, 1/96 latent hemo female

Eighth generation 95/192 non hemo male, 1/192 hemo male, 95/192 non hemo female, 1/192 latent hemo female

Ninth generation 191/384 non hemo male, 1/384 hemo male, 191/384 non hemo female, 1/384 latent hemo female

Tenth generation 383/768 non hemo male, 1/768 hemo male, 383/768 non hemo female, 1/768 latent hemo female

Elevent

PLIN

Tuesday, May 3, 2005 5:59 AM

I really don't think that the emergence of a new "breed" of human would be possible in the time frame given, even with a possible accelerated mutation rate. If you think about all the peoples on the planet and consider the fact that there are still several communities who have live in isolation, either because of their geography or because of cultural practices, and yet they are not ever considered different "breeds" of human, they are more genetically diverse amongst themselves, then amongst other populations of humans.

I think what is most likely to be occuring is not biological evolution but a cultural one. If one is to liken the Reavers to Pirates (which i believe was done earlier) one can see some similarlities, exaggerated though they may be. The pirate spends his time pillaging, plundering, swashbuckling, murdering, and raping, and yet no one questions where the source of all these pirates is or why they are the way they are. It is just accepted that for whatever reason, they have grown up to accept this new violent culture. It could easily be the same with the reavers, isolated on the outskirts of the universe, they might have had time to develop a culture that rotated around hatred of all other humans in the 'verse, and accepted violence without question. Perhaps instead of a "breeding class" they have somewhat normal pairings within their own population. And their violence is only directed towards other peoples.

If one was to look at the history of the human race, i'm sure many such examples could easily be found. The crusades in which savage torture was administered to foes because of differing religious beliefs, and it was accepted within the culture that administered it, because for whatever reason they felt themselves justified. And yet within these two factions normal life continued, men and women had children as they normally would, and violence was only administered to seeming "enemies".

So is it not possible that the reavers have some similar but exaggerated way of thinking. Perhaps they do have a hombase or planet, perhaps within their own "culture" they act relatively normal, and it is only towards others that they express this wanton violence. I think of all the options that have been vocalized this is the most logical. Because, realistically if we assume they had 500 years of isolation, and during this entire time they had selective breeding of some sort, the results would not create a new breed. 500 years is still only a handful of generations, i don't think it would be possible. However, a change in an isolated groups cultural identity, well now, that can happen very quickly, especially if for some reason there was pressure towards this end.

Sorry this was so long, it's my first post ever, and i guess i got carried away.

-Plin

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