Religions in Firefly
POSTED BY: Astragynia
UPDATED: Friday, April 15, 2005 13:18
VIEWED: 13636
PAGE 2 of 8
Yeah, I agree that religion is often used as a "we, not-we" divider. It's particularly galling as most religions have peace at the core of their philosophy and zealots (who should by definition stick the most closely to the texts) are the ones who most easily shrug it off, q.v. Osama insisting that there are no civilians to justify his attacks when the Koran very clearly and explicitly forbids attacking them.
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Quote:Really? Yet somehow the Roman State religion as established by Constantine in the 4th century not only persisted and continued to spread for 1500 years following the fall of the Roman Empire but remained the major religion of an entire culture right to this day.
Originally posted by SimonWho:
When empires fall, faith turns to dust. Just look at Mal.
Religions don’t necassarily disappear with the Empires that foster them. They change with shifting cultures and new ideas, but religions are not tied to the existence of the state. They exist independent of it. I would also think that if a religion can last for 2000 years, then there is little in my mind that makes believe it couldn’t last for 2500 years.
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Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.
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It's an old story, religion get co-opted and used to justify and compel actions of the ruling class, look at right to life and family values and all the little jingoistic nonsense of the current clowns in office(they're all clowns, some have better rubber noses...).
I think including the cross in the first ep was wise, gets you into the feel of the situation immediatly without having to explain a whole new religious archetecture.
And anyone who includes even the implication that violence can be done in the service of religion should be killed.
The tyrannical Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Religions don’t necassarily disappear with the Empires that foster them. They change with shifting cultures and new ideas, but religions are not tied to the existence of the state. They exist independent of it. I would also think that if a religion can last for 2000 years, then there is little in my mind that makes believe it couldn’t last for 2500 years.
And if it can last 2500 years then it can last 3000, etc, etc. And yet religions keep on dying. My point wasn't so much that the fall of an empire always leads to the fall of its religion. But very often the fates are tied together. The Roman Empire collapsed, it wasn't properly conquered as such, therefore it didn't have its religion replaced.
To get back on topic, we know Earth has fallen. Surely the enforced abandonment of our entire planet would make people question their beliefs, their value systems, letting soccer moms drive gas guzzling SUVs at $3 a gallon? Everyone would leave Jerusalem, Mecca, Mount Sinai, every single religious location behind. Vast passage of every religious text would become inapplicable (how would Muslims face Mecca for example?) Isn't it reasonable to assume that once again humanity would change its mind over religion once more?
I'm not saying there would be no faith, I'm just saying it wouldn't be the ones around at the moment. Christianity in the UK, where I am, has plummeted in recent years. Most people in this country still call themselves 'Christian' yet attend very few services (Christmas and Easter normally). This would have been unthinkable 50 years ago and yet here we are.
Also, according to the Firefly timeline, the two remaining superpowers are the United States and China (let's ignore the fact that the EU has a bigger GDP than both of them). If there really was a Chinese/American merger (which the flag implies) then wouldn't there be more Buddhism/Taoism cultures prevalent (particularly as there are already 4 times as many Chinese as Americans in the world)?
But of course, Firefly was a TV show aimed at being broadcast in America. I suspect if the show had stated explicitly that Christianity had died out a few centuries ago, it wouldn't even have lasted as long as it did. I just think that all religions have a lifespan and such a universal shift as the entire abandonment of Earth would cause an equal shift in beliefs.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:
But of course, Firefly was a TV show aimed at being broadcast in America. I suspect if the show had stated explicitly that Christianity had died out a few centuries ago, it wouldn't even have lasted as long as it did.
On the contrary, the Star Trek franchise has made it quite clear that in its universe all Earth religions have died out entirely (except Native-American spirituality) - and we all know how long ST has been going. Though to be fair, I guess it did originate in the 60s Modernism period when religion was seen as a dying thing of the past.
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Quote:Clearly not all of them. Judaism is even older then Christianity; in fact it’s older then 3000 years. And Judea fell even longer back then the Roman Empire.
Originally posted by SimonWho:
And if it can last 2500 years then it can last 3000, etc, etc. And yet religions keep on dying.
Quote:Given that scenario, maybe, maybe not. I don’t know that it was ever pointed out why earth was abandoned, if it actually was. But why would you think that hardships would make a people abandoned religion? Secularism is a philosophy that is historically associated with developed and established cultures with enough stability to pursue academic philosophies. Historically, I would think cultures in upheaval tend to shift towards the more religious, not less.
Originally posted by SimonWho:
To get back on topic, we know Earth has fallen. Surely the enforced abandonment of our entire planet would make people question their beliefs, their value systems, letting soccer moms drive gas guzzling SUVs at $3 a gallon? Everyone would leave Jerusalem, Mecca, Mount Sinai, every single religious location behind. Vast passage of every religious text would become inapplicable (how would Muslims face Mecca for example?) Isn't it reasonable to assume that once again humanity would change its mind over religion once more?
Quote:That’s true of a lot of Europe, but it’s not necessarily true of the US or China.
Originally posted by SimonWho:
I'm not saying there would be no faith, I'm just saying it wouldn't be the ones around at the moment. Christianity in the UK, where I am, has plummeted in recent years. Most people in this country still call themselves 'Christian' yet attend very few services (Christmas and Easter normally). This would have been unthinkable 50 years ago and yet here we are.
Quote:That’s ignoring the rapid success of Christianity in China, or what trends may occur in the future.. Currently it’s difficult to say what trends in religion exist in China, but it is very likely that Buddhism/Toaism are actually declining and being replaced by Christianity. Christianity is one of the fastest, if not the fastest, growing religion in the world. One can’t simply assume that Christianity will vanish because it is declining in the UK.
Originally posted by SimonWho:
Also, according to the Firefly timeline, the two remaining superpowers are the United States and China (let's ignore the fact that the EU has a bigger GDP than both of them). If there really was a Chinese/American merger (which the flag implies) then wouldn't there be more Buddhism/Taoism cultures prevalent (particularly as there are already 4 times as many Chinese as Americans in the world)?
Quote:I doubt Christianity was inserted in Firefly to appease Americans. Americans watch many shows that have nothing to do with Christianity. I think it probably had more to do with keeping with the Reconstruction Era theme, then anything else.
Originally posted by SimonWho:
But of course, Firefly was a TV show aimed at being broadcast in America. I suspect if the show had stated explicitly that Christianity had died out a few centuries ago, it wouldn't even have lasted as long as it did. I just think that all religions have a lifespan and such a universal shift as the entire abandonment of Earth would cause an equal shift in beliefs.
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Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
It's an old story, religion get co-opted and used to justify and compel actions of the ruling class...
While I entirely agree that this happens and continues to happen today, do you think this is what's happening in FF? For some reason I thought of the Alliance as being secular and religion being mostly on the Rim (the witch-hunt being one extremist example) - but then as soupcatcher pointed out:
Quote:
Originally posted by soupcatcher:
And Nandi's comment in Heart of Gold about Inara being on track to become House Priestess.
so that means there must be some kind of religion in the Alliance worlds (though of course it could just be that the Companions' Guild honour their own goddess(es)/god(s), which would be very similar to how many guilds in the Roman Empire worked).
Simon and River are of course the major examples we have of the "ruling classes" - I don't remember either character mentioning or implying a religion, though I'm sure I'm forgetting something.
(Edit) - Oops, now I know what I'm forgetting - Book's mysterious connections to the Alliance.
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This would be the Star Trek that had Kirk exclaiming in the episode 'Bread and Circuses' that the Planet 892-IV, had both Caesar and 'the Son of God'? I can't remember any episode specifically declaring that religion was dead.
Christianity is growing in China but apparently only by as much as the population is growing. Plus of course the government periodically cracks down on it. America is of course a predominantly Christian country but that's rather the point. The only way to go is down.
Why do I think people will dramatically change their attitudes after the Earth is abandoned? Think about the changes after 9/11. Suddenly people reassessed who they were. It was like a global phenomenon. The number of articles that have started "Ever since 9/11...". Just today Britney Spears's husband said how he decided to have children after it, the attacks making him think about what's really important.
That's what happened when two buildings got knocked down and a few thousand people died. Now imagine that every building on the face of the entire Earth is coming down. You're being crowded onto packed shuttles to an unknown destination. You're chances of survival are slim. It's your Christian nation that has used up the world's resources. Are you telling me that people aren't going to question what they've been told? What about the new generations that never even saw Earth? Won't they see religions as backward tales from a cursed planet? I just don't see preachers turning up on Sunday for work as normal coming to anything.
As for the long term future of Christianity in the real world, I don't think there's much point looking at yearly trends. Centuries is the way to go and centuries predict that religions come and go or evolve (Judaism into Christianity). Plus nowadays we have a widespread number of people who make up their own religions, frequently claiming to take bits from each religion they know of. My favourite is David Beckham who said about his son "He's going to be baptised but we haven't decided into what religion yet."
He makes more in a week than we will in any year of our lives. Makes you think, doesn't it?
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Quote:
so that means there must be some kind of religion in the Alliance worlds (though of course it could just be that the Companions' Guild honour their own goddess(es)/god(s), which would be very similar to how many guilds in the Roman Empire worked).
Exactly. Just look at Inara whenever she mentions Guild Law, it's like saying ' yeah, I have to get my shots', she says it with a chuckle sometimes, but she isn't comfortable with being controlled to that degree. Which she likes(loves) Mal, he's free! And whatever gods or godesses there are are probably there to say 'Guild is good, Guild is law...blagh blagh".
And Book is preacher turned pawn of the Alliance, another example of government controlling God and his mouthpieces.
To Simonwho, really insightful stuff. I'm as surprised to see brilliantly clear thought here as I am to see Herbert-like thinking on the real world events threads, lol.
The religiously cynical Chrisisall
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Quote:Rather convoluted. Have you thought about this?
Originally posted by SimonWho:
This would be the Star Trek that had Kirk exclaiming in the episode 'Bread and Circuses' that the Planet 892-IV, had both Caesar and 'the Son of God'? I can't remember any episode specifically declaring that religion was dead.
Christianity is growing in China but apparently only by as much as the population is growing. Plus of course the government periodically cracks down on it. America is of course a predominantly Christian country but that's rather the point. The only way to go is down.
Why do I think people will dramatically change their attitudes after the Earth is abandoned? Think about the changes after 9/11. Suddenly people reassessed who they were. It was like a global phenomenon. The number of articles that have started "Ever since 9/11...". Just today Britney Spears's husband said how he decided to have children after it, the attacks making him think about what's really important.
That's what happened when two buildings got knocked down and a few thousand people died. Now imagine that every building on the face of the entire Earth is coming down. You're being crowded onto packed shuttles to an unknown destination. You're chances of survival are slim. It's your Christian nation that has used up the world's resources. Are you telling me that people aren't going to question what they've been told? What about the new generations that never even saw Earth? Won't they see religions as backward tales from a cursed planet? I just don't see preachers turning up on Sunday for work as normal coming to anything.
What changes that occurred after 9/ll have led you to believe that Christianity will disappear? How is Britney Spear’s husband opting to have children evidence that Christianity will disappear in the future? The US definitely uses its share of resources; some might argue more then its share, but no where near all the worlds’ resources. Why would they necessarily see religions as backward?
Christianity has associated with it a doomsday belief, so why wouldn’t they see the end of the world as prophesized by God? Why wouldn’t they believe that John’s prophecy had come to pass? Why wouldn’t such a scenario serve to strengthen belief in Christianity?
Quote:Yes, centuries. Today the fastest growing religion is also 20 centuries old.
Originally posted by SimonWho:
As for the long term future of Christianity in the real world, I don't think there's much point looking at yearly trends. Centuries is the way to go and centuries predict that religions come and go or evolve (Judaism into Christianity). Plus nowadays we have a widespread number of people who make up their own religions, frequently claiming to take bits from each religion they know of. My favourite is David Beckham who said about his son "He's going to be baptised but we haven't decided into what religion yet."
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Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.
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