PRAY FOR TERRI SCHIAVO
POSTED BY: Conscience
UPDATED: Sunday, June 19, 2005 02:31
VIEWED: 17528
PAGE 5 of 11
I had sworn off reading realworld posts but the subject line caught me.
Now I remember why I do not come here. You are sad, mean, vicious, filthy people and I am ashamed to call you fellow brown coats. You are not. You are Alliance. I see that now. I will pray for Terri and her family because no one deserves to starve to death. Goodbye
She understands, she doesn't comprehend
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I've considered this without, I think, any meanness or forgone conclusions. But I don't think my opinion should count. So I haven't weighed in with anything other than my understanding of her actual medical condition.
I'd like to point out that, at least until now, everyone dies. Death is something we will all endure. I have watched hundreds of people die. I have sat with family members while they died. I've seen only one death that looked tranquil - as if the patient had closed her eyes for a second, thinking peacefully and calmly about her life perhaps, and then simply forgot to breathe. Unless they were mercifully unconscious, everyone else has died in knowledge of their dying, in pain, distress and fear.
Without making a judgment on whether or not this was her time to die, the manner of death doesn't seem unduly cruel.
Here is an article about a family who had the same terrible decision to make, whose boy did show some attempts to move during therapy, who laughed at times, and who who also elected to withdraw nourishment:
http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2005/03/24/my_brother/index.html
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Quote:That’s an interpretation you’re free to make. While Connor clearly believes the act of killing Mrs. Schiavo to be murder, I don’t see any dependents on an unwillingness to provide voluntary aide as the catalyst. Aside from the colorful tone of some of his posts, (a tone I do sympathize with) I can see his side of things. If Connor wishes to clarify his position, I’ll leave that to him.
Originally posted by xenocide:
Your last post helped me understand Connor's point better, though I still (clairvoyantly) believe that he believes that withholding aid is tantamount to murder(note emphasis on 'especially.')
Quote:Yes. But let me clarify that Mr. Schiavo is not suing for the execution of the “expressed wishes” of his wife. If indeed these wishes were expressed, I would have no problem with the courts decision. The problem that I have is that the court is essentially speculating on what Mrs. Schiavo thinks, and that speculation along with what may be inconclusive medical evidence is being used as justification for state mandated starvation of an innocent human being. I think the state should set the bar for killing innocent human beings higher then their assessment of a person’s ability to think.
Originally posted by xenocide:
So let me see if I understand your basic poition. It seems to me that you and Connor believe that a judge should not be allowed to enforce a next of kins decision to execute the expressed wishes of his incapacitated spouse?
In your case you seem to believe that this might be allowable if the wishes of the incapacitated party where written and witnessed.
I believe Judge Greer’s deliberation on the issue is stretching. I’m concerned with the degree to which people have taken wholly unfounded issues in this case and contorted them into fact, on both sides. As a result of this, a woman may die while the nation reassures themselves with wholly unknowable “facts.” Such as Mrs. Schiavo complete lack of cortical function? Or what Mrs. Schiavo would have wanted? Neither are things that we know. To a large degree I think that many people’s opinions on the matter have more to do with using Mrs. Schiavo’s life to push a political “right to die” agenda, then with a genuine concern for her. Politically, this is part and parcel to the abortion issue. I think there is also some degree of interfamily politics between Mr. Schiavo and Mr. and Mrs Schindler. And it kind of turns my stomach that Mrs. Schiavo, aware or not, may die in furtherance of personal agendas that have nothing to do with her health or safety. Of course, I’m speculating. I don’t know what Mr. Schiavo, or the Schindler’s unspoken agendas are, if anything, but I do know politics when I see it, and there is way too much of it surrounding what, in my opinion, should be a private family matter.
I don’t know if the court has overstepped its bounds, but if it has not, then I believe we should reassess the courts bounds. I think it is a reasonable judgment to nullify Mr. Schiavo’s marriage. I even think that given strong evidence of Mrs. Schiavo lack of higher cortical functions, I would believe that absolving the state, the hospice, the family etc of any potential liability in Mrs. Schaivo’s death may also be acceptable. That way her husband could go his own way free from whatever obligation he may or may not have felt for his invalid wife. And those who wish could take care of Mrs Schiavo or, if they see fit, allow her to die. But I do not believe that the state has any right to interfere in the way they have done or basis to even form an opinion, not without solid legal pronouncements from Mrs. Schiavo. Mrs. Schiavo’s life or death should remain a family matter, and the court should have made that clear.
Quote:
Originally posted by xenocide:
My standpoint is based in what I believe that government, maximally, should be; the enforcer of contracts. It seems to me that you and Connor believe that government should have another role. Am I correct in assuming this? [/NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:Ah, an image of what may or may not be a CT scan of Mrs. Schiavo’s brain on an internet blog site written by someone who is not a doctor?
Originally posted by rue:
Ultrasound (not applicable here) has resolution of about 7.5mm. CT has a resolution of about 1mm (though high resolution CT has a better resolution). MRI has sub-mm resolution.
However, MRI is not needed to see her gross loss of brain matter. (one scan available at the following link) http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/03/18/terri-schiavo-news/
As someone who is acquainted with the physics of CT, NMR, ESR and PET and having worked on both CT, NMR/MRI and ESR signatures/RIs I am aware of the shortcomings of the CT compared to either the MRI or the PET imagery. (ESR scanners only collect data in the paramagnetic sources. I’ve never heard it being used for medical imagery.) I’m not a neurologist, so I don’t know what neurologists think when they see a CT scan. There are plenty of distinctions between CT and MRI, though. Resolution, which is dependent on more then just spatial quantities, is just one. There is also the attenuation of X-rays, which is poor in the human body; as such CT scans tend to produce good contrast and resolution only between very dense material, such as bone, and softer tissue. I question its ability to resolve the subtle distinctions between fluids and brain tissue, an NMR is better suited for that. MRI, which is not depended on the attenuation of X-rays, is able to produce very clear distinction between different types of soft tissue that all appear quite the same in CT. So when I read that neurologists question why Mrs. Schiavo was not given an MRI, I tend to consider that rather strange myself, considering that a distinction between a fluid and brain tissue is one of the principle pieces of evidence that I have heard in support of Mrs. Schiavo’s diagnosis.
But the issue of the imagery may be moot, because I don’t believe the CT scans were ever of use in the diagnoses. To my understanding, PVS is something that is generally diagnosed symptomatically, not with the use of scans. Not surprisingly, PVS is often misdiagnosed.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Ah, an image of what may or may not be a CT scan of Mrs. Schiavo’s brain on an internet blog site written by someone who is not a doctor?
Finn, follow the links. This is where the souce came from:
http://www.miami.edu/
Which the specific page is here:
http://www.miami.edu/ethics2/schiavo/Schiavo_links.htm
Somehow, I'll trust an University over you. Some guy posting on the net who always seems to be familiar with everything that is being discussed.
----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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The two questions are: Is Terri in a non-recoverable state and, if so, did she decide that she wouldn't want to live in that condition? I totally understand the point of view of the parents who are willing to spend the rest of their lives taking care of their daughter. It's heartbreaking and so human. I think all good parents would make any sacrifice to take care of their children, no matter what. But is that what she would've wanted? Are they, with the best of intentions based on their love for their daughter, going against her wishes? Sometimes the hardest thing to do is to follow the wishes of someone you love when you disagree with their decision, especially if their decision is to die and you want them to live. And there's the problem. She didn't leave a written decision. So it came down to the courts.
I was trying to find the actual court documents in this case. FindLaw has a page, but they only go back to 2003 (unless I'm missing something):
http://news.findlaw.com/legalnews/lit/schiavo/index.html
The most complete grouping I've found so far for primary source documents is from the same website you reference, SigmaNunki. The index to the documents is chronological:
http://www.miami.edu/ethics2/schiavo/timeline.htm
I'm slowly working my way through the mass of paperwork and I've come to one conclusion: most of the reporters writing stories on this topic haven't read the legal documents.
I read the February 11, 2000 Trial Court Ruling ( http://www.miami.edu/ethics2/schiavo/021100-Trial%20Ct%20Order%200200.
pdf )and a couple of things jumped out. The judge acknowledges the conflict of interest of Michael Schiavo in regards to his testimony. My interpretation is that, if Michael Schiavo is the only person testifying as to Terri's wishes to not live on life support, that wouldn't have been enough for the judge. The two additional witnesses (brother and sister-in-law of Michael) are what convinced the judge. Here's the relevent quote,
Quote:
Starting with the last sentence of page 5
The court has reviewed the testimony of Scott Schiavo and Joan Schiavo and finds nothing contained therein to be unreliable. The court notes that neither of these witnesses appeared to have shaded his or her testimony or even attempt to exclude unfavorable comments or points regarding those discussions. They were not impeached on cross-examination. Argument is made as to why they waited so long to step forward but their explanations are worthy of belief.
So the judge was convinced that Terri would not have wanted to live if there was no hope of recovery.
Now as to the question of whether or not there is hope of recovery. Going back to the same document:
Quote:
Starting with the first full paragraph on page 6
Turning to the medical issues of the case, the court finds beyond all doubt that Theresa Marie Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state or the same is defined by Florida Statues Section 765.101 (12) per the specific testimony of Dr. James Barnhill and corroborated by Dr. Vincent Gambone. The medical evidence before this court conclusively establishes that she has no hope of ever regaining consciousness and therefore capacity, and that without the feeding tube she will die in seven to fourteen days. The unrebutted medical testimony before this court is that such death would be painless. The film offered into evidence by Respondents does nothing to change these medical opinions which are supported by the CAT scans in evidence. Mrs. Schindler has testified as her perceptions regarding her daughter and the court is not unmindful that perceptions may become reality to the person having them. But the overwhelming credible evidence is that Terri Schiavo has been totally unresponsive since lapsing into the coma almost ten years ago, that her movements are reflexive and predicated on brain stem activity alone, that she suffers from severe structural brain damage and to a large extent her brain has been replaced by spinal fluid, that with the exception of one witness wNOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Connor, as sympathetic as I am toward Ms. Shiavo's parents...I see what they're doing as completely wrongheaded. While I can understand that they've now built their entire life around "saving" Terri, the proponderance of evidence, from doctors who actually examine her, is that Terri is gone.
Frankly, I do not comprehend how people think there is something positive in holding out hope that Terri might be "minimally conscious." To my mind, the notion that Terri might even be slightly conscious of what has happened to her, what continues to pass for existence, fills me with horror for her. I pray that Terri is NOT aware of what her life has become, and that if she has a soul it is elsewhere and at peace.
Allowing Terri to go is not murder. It's mercy. And I speak as somehow who has been there, as someone who had to decide how to let my young son die. You trivialize what many families know is an agonizing situation. And you know what? Mindlessly parroting the folk who demonizing Michael Shiavo when you've never had to live with his choices? That just makes you a mean, judgemental person in my book. So I wish you'd stop posing this as "concern" for Terri, because your hateful rhetoric belies any real compassion for what this family is enduring.
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I have a bad feeling that the coda to this whole sad incident will occur when some ardent right-to-life supporter kills either Michael Schiavo or one of the judges who has turned down Terri's parents' requests to continue feeding her. It seems as inevitable as a Greek tragedy.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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You're probably right, Geezer. And it looks like it's starting already. From todays AP, "Man Tries to Steal Gun to 'Rescue Schiavo' ":
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050325/ap_on_re_us/brain
_damaged_woman_arrest_4
*editted to add: Okay. What idiot brings a knife (well, not even a real knife, a box cutter) to rob a firearms store? Didn't his parents ever teach him not to bring a knife to a gun fight? (McKenzie is the store dude)
Quote:
from AP article
"He told me if I wasn't on Terri's side then I wasn't on God's side, either," McKenzie told The Associated Press.
McKenzie said he then pointed his own gun at Mitchell and ordered him to lie on the ground. But Mitchell fled out the store's back door before police arrived, he said.
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