Maybe it's good it was cancelled . . .
POSTED BY: grrarrg
UPDATED: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 20:31
VIEWED: 11296
PAGE 4 of 5
"Season 5 is a writing tour-de-force, if nothing else, because by retroactively introducing a younger sister, they put the original premise back in place."
Tour-de-force? They don't actually deal to any real degree with the fact that essentially history has been rewritten to include Dawn. A big oversight if you ask me. S5 included such rubbish as Dracula, Glory the god preoccupied with fashion (!!!), some random Knights who have no clue what they're doing, Riley's shoddy exit and the cop-out of all time in Buffy taking Dawn's place with some fudged 'blood' explanation. Fair enough it had Fool For Love and The Body, but other than those two I don't think there's an episode I'd rewatch.
However, you do get points for using the word 'apotheosis'. Best word ever 
"Joss and company can make up whatever rules suit them, as long as they keep the viewers believing in the fictional universe."
And if we don't believe any more...?
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Grounded, was there any season of the Jossverse you ever liked? Any time I come to this board, or the Buffy one, you mostly respond to things you hated. You obviously know a lot about the shows, but if you disliked the plots so much of the time, why did you keep watching?
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Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
S5 included such rubbish as Dracula, Glory the god preoccupied with fashion (!!!), some random Knights who have no clue what they're doing, Riley's shoddy exit and the cop-out of all time in Buffy taking Dawn's place with some fudged 'blood' explanation.
I actually liked S5. It was a huge step forward after S4's major step back. They got rid of Riley. That was a great move. They got an enemy that was at least interesting (the half human half god thing). They brought in Dawn pretty darn well. Then the huge final battle. I liked it.
My problem was those knights. Didn't anyone else get upset that up until this season Buffy was all upity about not killing a human. She even had a line during the hanzel and grettle episode about finding an way out of the not killing human clause or something. Yet those knights don't seem to count as she slaughters tons of them without remorse. I know she was protecting her sister and blah blah blah. That would be an ok explination if she at least said something about it. Any one liner would have helped.
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Quote:
Originally posted by amyel:
Grounded, was there any season of the Jossverse you ever liked? Any time I come to this board, or the Buffy one, you mostly respond to things you hated. You obviously know a lot about the shows, but if you disliked the plots so much of the time, why did you keep watching?
Hehe, I've been asked this a few times. Seasons 1-3 of Buffy are brilliant, 4 is good, 5 is passable, 6 tanks after Tabula Rasa and 7 is so boring it's untrue. Angel S1-3 are amazing, 4 is dire, 5 is a huge recovery, if a little shaky at times. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Joss fan based solely on Firefly
When I felt the shows were floundering, I continued to watch because I wanted to keep up with continuity should they improve. I was rewarded with Angel S5 Quote:
They got rid of Riley. That was a great move.
I disagree. While the Initiative story was a bit of a dud, I felt Riley was a solid basis for an interesting character. We saw flashes of that in Goodbye Iowa and there was a nice character moment ("She doesn't love me") between him and Xander at the start of S5, but then the kneejerk reaction was to get rid of him when he and Buffy hit the ropes. The way he was written out was absolutely terrible, and his reappearance in S6 utterly ineffective.
Quote:
They got an enemy that was at least interesting (the half human half god thing).
But they didn't really play that up. There was the one really good moment where Ben stabs the underling guy but other than that where was the substance? There was a lot of scope there (even if I thought the Glory character was ridiculous) but they never really mined the possibilities.
And Dawn. What exactly is the point of her? She's introduced in this world-affecting way and yet he plays little or no significant part in the majority of the final 3 seasons. Much like Xander in that respect, I guess :(
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Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
and 7 is so boring it's untrue.
well I agree that S7 of BtVS was frustrating at the time it aired,
but have you ever rewatched it?
Because several of the episodes are amazing (IMO)
I recommend rewatching:
Selfless (Anya sings, and talks in Swedish)
Conversations with Dead People
Storyteller (of course I always love Jane Espenson's writing)
Dirty Girls (Drew Goddard's love song to Eliza, plus Faith kills a Vulcan! LOL)
okay, four really good episodes don't make for a great season,
but I think even the worst episodes have their wonderful moments
(and are better than anything else on TV)
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However, you do get points for using the word 'apotheosis'. Best word ever
I always knew there had to be some benefit to earning a BA in English.
Not to quibble, as there were certainly aspects of B5 that were less than perfect, but to your points:
- "dealing" with the history of introducing Dawn; it's magic. One of the great things about the Buffyverse is that you have to check your 'willing suspension of disbelief' at the door. Numerous events throughout the season hinted at Dawn's tenuous status in this reality.
- Knights: The subtle point I was trying to make was that the dynamic of the seasonal arcs had more to do with the enemies than the the heroes. Demons got their butts kicked in graveyards, but gods already had an army (the Knights of Byzantium) to oppose her/it.
"And if we don't believe any more...?"
We stop watching (and contributing to sites like this.
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Embers: Those are indeed the better episodes of S7, but I wouldn't rank any of them highly compared with the rest of the series. When I saw CWDP first run I thought 'wow, they finally pulled a good episode out', but when I saw it again recently and was thoroughly unimpressed. Kind of shows the standards to which I'd been holding the series at that point. Selfless is ok, if a little ridiculous, but I have a real problem with the character of Anya since she was completely remoulded after her appearances in S3.
Numero: What I meant by 'dealing with history' was not the history of Dawn's introduction, but the implications for established history. Buffy finds out that Dawn isn't real, but there's no examination of past events afterwards.
"We stop watching (and contributing to sites like this." Why? I can't contribute because I love the first part of a series but dislike it's ending? I stopped finding Buffy believable in S6, but that doesn't mean I don't care I didn't find it believable...
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From a writing standpoint, I thought it was a "Hail Mary pass" to introduce a sibling 3 1/2 years into the show. Apart from the fact it led to a number of cute situations:
JOYCE
If you are going to the movies,
why not take your sister?
BUFFY & DAWN
(together, whining)
Mom!
The move effectively split the Buffy character. Dawn allowed the series to stay in touch with teenage anxieties (who am I really?), while Buffy could go on to deal with more mature themes like selflessness (season 5), teamwork (season 6), and leadership (season 7).
Given that the whole introduction of the sibling was a (nearly literal) "deus ex machina" device, in my opinion they spent a fair amount of energy on the ramifications of the "history," at least to the individuals involved. If you don't accept that "magic" explains how a 14-year-old could suddenly appear in the memories of everyone she would have interacted with, then that addresses your second point: for you, that maneuver spoiled your belief in the premise of the show.
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My feelings on seasons of Buffy and Angel are varied.
Buffy- I must be of the few people that actually like ssn 1. I don't know why. Not a huge fan of Teacher's Pet or The Pack though. I also love ssn 2 with the appearance of Angelus. Ssn 3 is also good, but there are a few eps that were disappointing (The Zeppo for instance). It's hard to judge ssn 4 because I didn't see it until after I had seen all the other episodes in the whole series. But I think it's a little disappointing with a few standout eps. I absolutely love ssn 5, I think Glory is really interesting. I'm a fan of insane characters. Didn't really like ssn 6 (the whole Buffy/Spike thing was just a little too weird for me) but I love OMWF and Tabula Rasa. Ssn 7 got a little better, but I was a little let down by some parts.
Angel- I watched all Angel episodes completely out of order (I started at ssn 4) so it'shard to tell, but-
I like ssn 1, particularly Doyle eps. Don't get me wrong, I love Wesley too, but Doyle is just great! Ssn 2 is really good, I especially like the Pylea eps (which were the first eps I ever saw). I like early ssn 3, but I feel it went sort of down after Connor came back from Quor Toth. I like early ssn 4, it lost me around the middle to be pulled back with the Jasmine storyline. Ssn 5 felt a little odd, but it was pretty much good. Eps such as The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco and Lineage were not exactly my cup of tea whereas A Hole In The World and You're Welcome were fantastic.
As much as I wish Angel had continued, i do understand that it probably would have been a huge let down.
Anyway, just my opinion
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No Power In The 'Verse Can Stop Me
XOXOX-FREDIKAYLLOW-XOXOX
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But, Fredikayllow, if you didn't own them, and you could only afford to start buying one, which would you get, Buffy or Angel?
A situation I currently find myself in Chrisisall
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