PRAY FOR TERRI SCHIAVO
POSTED BY: Conscience
UPDATED: Sunday, June 19, 2005 02:31
VIEWED: 17528
PAGE 2 of 11
Quote:
Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
So, which is it? Is a body without higher order cognition (intellectual and emotional) just a shell or some sort of "person" still?
Depends on the definition of person.
Quote:
Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Is it something between 0 to 100% of a person, or is it 100% person, but just disconnected from the higher order senses?
I don't think that a scale should be used. This is one of the very few black and white issues. Someone is either a person or not.
I really think what should be the question is, what constitutes dead?
----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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The US governments or governments in general, should not be in the practice of killing people because they do not exhibit enough awareness. As the president said, we should err on the side of life.
I’ve read where many people have criticized drawing a conclusion from a few seconds of film in which Shiavo appears to watch and follow a balloon as it is moved across her field of view. But the fact remains that that film clip, the length of which is irrelevant, demonstrates that Shiavo has been able to react to her environment. So it would seem to be an absolute certainty that at least once during this so-called “persistent vegetative state” that Shiavo was responding to her environment. What is far less certain is to what degree her condition renders her unaware and cognitively dead. Not a shred of conclusive evidence exists to support that conclusion; it is pure supposition.
How does anyone know that she is unaware? Even the doctors can’t draw a consenting opinion. The fact is that people have recovered after being diagnosed as being in a “persistent vegetative states.” People can function with chunks of their brain missing. No one doubts she hasn’t sustained some degree of brain damage, but if that alone qualifies her for being killed, then we are now living in a state where retarded people can be put to death simply based on our assessment of how much of their brain is functional? Science cannot offer a conclusion here.
Then there is the politics. A husband with complete control of the life and death of his wife who appears to be quite divided in his interests. Parents whose only request is to keep their daughter alive are being ignored. Some people claim that Shiavo should be killed because that is what she wants or wanted. Based on what? Her husband who is clearly divided? People who may have heard her say something while she was alive? People say a lot of things while they are alive, we don’t kill them for it, do we? It’s easy to say things in passing while one believes themselves free from consequences. We should not be in the practice of killing people based on heresay. If it does not come from the person in question in the form of a signed legal document, then how can something be used as justification for killing a person who cannot make that decision themselves? If there is nothing conclusive about the evidence that science can offer, then how are judges and politicians going to draw a conclusion on what Terry Shiavo thinks, especially since their whole position is that she doesn’t think.
Finally, the fact of the matter is that the plant in my living room sitting by the back door is in a persistent vegetative state, yet there is no law preventing me from giving it water. In fact, if I were to not give it water and allow it do die, some people would claim that as evidence of irresponsibility based on neglect. So even if Terry Shiavo is truly in a state in which she will never recover and has no awareness of her surrounding, how on earth do we justify creating laws specifically designed to neglect her until she dies when there are people who want to take care of her. My god, even my plant would seem to have more rights then Terry Shiavo.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Signym:
"Your post hardly is worth a reply, but I'm going to anyway. When you have taken care of Terri for EIGHT YEARS- diapering her, feeding her, bathing her, amusing her- as her husband did- THEN you can come back and call him "evil". Until you've done that, shut the f*ck up."
What the hell are you talking about?!?!
You get on here with your self righteous BS about "Bathe her and change her diapers and watch her suffer". Michael Schiavo hasn't done any of that, hell he was hardly ever there.
He's left her minimal care up to the hospital staff WHEN HE'S ALLOWED them to care for her at all.
The guy's been trying to whack her from the day he recieved his settlement check (even though he claimed he would see to it she got all the proper care).
Personally I think the guy is desperate to hide something.
I've followed this case for the last 3 years and Michael Schiavo is a kook. An adulterous lecherous lying Kook at that. Anyone who is "THAT" devoted to his wife, wouldn't hook up with some other white trash broad and make babies with her out of wedlock. I don't buy the whole "She wouldn't want to live this way" Bullshit either. As far as I'm concerned, if it isn't in writing then you shouldn't be able to MURDER someone, ESPECIALLY if there is someone who wants to care for that person.
According to Signym "IT'S NOT OK" to whack or interrogate terrorist bastards who kill people (because we may humiliate them or further anger them ) but it's ok to starve someone to death based on SOMEONE ELSES word even though there were NO OTHER MOTHER F'ing witnesses!!!!!
What a crock of shit.
Conscience just give it up, all the liberal douchebags on these boards are a bunch of hacks.
I think I get it now..the new "Progressive Credo"
"If they can't defend themselves..kill em" , lets see we should abort infants because they have cleft lips, We can whack retarded people (I'm sure thats coming..too expensive to care for..that whole diaper changing etc..etc..), the infirm, etc..etc..
"If they can defend themselves..be afraid of them and kowtow to their every want and desire."
Terrorists, murderers (god help us if we use the death penalty), rapists etc..etc..
ARGHHHHHHHHH..!!!!!!!!!!!
I need more ducktape to hold the top of my head on.
I wonder how many people would cry out in anger and dismay from the liberal douchebag wing if we were to STARVE TO DEATH an animal, because "THEIR OWNER" said that the animal wouldn't want to live that way.
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Terri is no longer there. Terri died when she purged so much she had a heart attack, and her brain was left without oxygen too long. Only her body is left, and it has an approximate cognitive functioning slightly higher than a slug.
But if you want to look at sheer unadulterated hypocracy- what about those Republican Congressman who voted to "save Terri" and cut Medicare? Or, what about Bush? In Texas, HIS law says the hospital makes the decision on when to pull the plug, and THAT decision is based on "ability to pay".
Jeez, Check out your facts first BEFORE you start whinging!
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Terri is no longer there. Terri died when she purged so much she had a heart attack, and her brain was left without oxygen too long. Only her body is left, and it has an approximate cognitive functioning slightly higher than a slug.
But if you want to look at sheer unadulterated hypocracy- what about those Republican Congressman who voted to "save Terri" and cut Medicare? Or, what about Bush? In Texas, HIS law says the hospital makes the decision on when to pull the plug, and THAT decision is based on "ability to pay".
Jeez, Check out your facts first BEFORE you start whinging!
LOL..maybe you didn't read or hear about the strange bone scans or the possibility that her "Loving" husband choked her out. I find it strange that he is so keen on having her cremated against the rest of the family's wishes but hey..I haven't checked any of my facts *waves the whatever hand*
I say we follow your lead and kill anyone who is infirm currently, particularly if only one person says they shouldn't or wouldn't want to live that way. We can start with Autistic children and children with cancer or other debilitating issues and work our way up to the elderly. Lets do away with them . We should make it as painful as possible too. Last I checked though Euthanasia is illegal and so is assisted suicide. So I guess it's better to just do what the eskimoes do and put em on an iceberg and float em out to sea.
I now fully believe you are a delusional crackpot so filled with hatred for Republicans (though there were some Democrats involved in this Bill as well, except for the cut throat kill em all if the Repubs want em to live assholes) that you will despise everything that a Repub may say regardless of whether or not they are right.
I'm begging you to pack and move to Canada to live with all the other tree-hugging capitalism hating ass blasting dirt munchers.
I'll continue to have compassion for those who deserve it and those who don't can kiss my ass.
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Alright! I really have been trying to avoid these converstions but what the hell. If there's something I can't stand it's hypocrisy.
Finn, Connor. By your standard, not force feeding this woman is tantamount to murder? Come on. So now, with holding aid is murder. By that condition we are a nation of rabid murderers. Withholding food aid abroad. Placeing an embargo on iraq. Withholding funds from aid groups that aside from fighting AIDs also provide family planning service (read abortion.) Come on.
Is withholding aid really a standard you want to use for MURDER? Don't be fucking ridiculous. So that bum I didn't give a dollar to. If he freezes to death tonight, have I committed murder? Do I have the duty to ensure that every person 'lives' every second that machinery and modern medicine and force feeding can provide? Otherwise I am a murder? This is the most absurd thing I have ever heard.
And furhtermore, you are the same folks chronically defending marriage. Alright well listen, as next of kin a husband has the legal right to make this decision for his wife. That is part of marriage. Regardless of your self righteous narrow opinion of what kind of husband he was.
If I am ever in her state I hope no STATE will tell my wife she has to pay to maintain my corpse in some bizarre psuedo life. Your worried about states legislating death... well they do that all the time. It is in fact the only true power of the state. The threat of death. Let's not give them another power by making life one of their further powers.
-Eli
If voting mattered, they'd make it illegal.
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Conner- As far as Terri is concerned- she has been scoped, prodded, assessed, and examined numerous times over the past fifteen years, including a group of five doctors (2 chosen by the parents, 2 chosen by Michael, 12 chesen by the judge). If the only thing you can come up with is some unsubstantiated allegations that have ALREADY been reviewed IN COURT, then you are simply arguing for the sake of argument.
And FYI- There is a VAST difference between being "infirm" and being vegetative. Having dealth with a MIL who died raving and incontinent (metastatic cancer), a father who died of cerebellar degeneration (fuly aware, unable to respond) and a child that the neuros gave up on ten years ago, I think I have profoundly more to say on the topic than you. Your TOTAL lack of thought and compassion, your abundance of self-righteous hypocracy, your complete lack of feeling for the people involved is truly apalling... and SO VERY TYPCIAL of the right-wing that you represent. Go hide yourself in shame, you stupid mother. Oh yeah, I forgot- the right wing has no morals and therfore has no shame. But that's OK- now everyone can see what an idiot you are.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Conner- There is a VAST difference between being "infirm" and being vegetative. Having dealth with a MIL who died raving and incontinent (metastatic cancer), a father who died of cerebellar degeneration (fuly aware, unable to respond) and a child that the neuros gave up on ten years ago, I think I have profoundly more to say on the topic than you. Your TOTAL lack of thought and compassion, your abundance of self-righteous hypocracy, your complete lack of feeling for the people involved is truly apalling... and SO VERY TYPCIAL of the right-wing that you represent. Go hide yourself in shame, you stupid mother.
Like I said..we can follow your lead and kill anyone who "lacks cognitive awareness". What the fuck do you mean my complete lack of feeling for everyone involved. There are a HELLUVA lot more people who are involved that want Terri to live then the 2 or 3 pieces of vile waste that want her dead.
As for your profound knowledge ..you don't know me..you don't know my life background. Don't proclaim you know shit about me or what I've been through. I've cared for 3 cancer stricken family members..so don't tell me what is right or is wrong or what it means to be compassionate, you elitist headcase.
One person should NOT have the ability to declare death upon someone for the sole reason that they "Wouldn't want to be that way" unless that person put their desires in writing.
Starving someone to death is not compassionate it's wrong.
PS..because you make it a point to declare anyone who disagrees with this biblical times barbarism,a member of the Right wing hypocrisy (spelled with an "i" not an "a" ) just proves my point above. I'm no Right wing Bible Thumping Right to Lifer. Get over the goddamned election and get over yourself.
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Quote:
Originally posted by xenocide:
Alright! I really have been trying to avoid these converstions but what the hell. If there's something I can't stand it's hypocrisy.
Finn, Connor. By your standard, not force feeding this woman is tantamount to murder? Come on. So now, with holding aid is murder. By that condition we are a nation of rabid murderers. Withholding food aid abroad. Placeing an embargo on iraq. Withholding funds from aid groups that aside from fighting AIDs also provide family planning service (read abortion.) Come on.
Is withholding aid really a standard you want to use for MURDER? Don't be fucking ridiculous. So that bum I didn't give a dollar to. If he freezes to death tonight, have I committed murder? Do I have the duty to ensure that every person 'lives' every second that machinery and modern medicine and force feeding can provide? Otherwise I am a murder? This is the most absurd thing I have ever heard.
And furhtermore, you are the same folks chronically defending marriage. Alright well listen, as next of kin a husband has the legal right to make this decision for his wife. That is part of marriage. Regardless of your self righteous narrow opinion of what kind of husband he was.
If I am ever in her state I hope no STATE will tell my wife she has to pay to maintain my corpse in some bizarre psuedo life. Your worried about states legislating death... well they do that all the time. It is in fact the only true power of the state. The threat of death. Let's not give them another power by making life one of their further powers.
-Eli
If voting mattered, they'd make it illegal.
WOW!!! You are a real putz. Her parents want to take care of her. NOONE IS FORCING MICHAEL SCHIAVO TO PAY FOR HIS WIFE. Not one red frigging dime has been spent out of his own hard earned funds to pay for anything regarding Terri.
Xenocide is officially on my "Ignore the Fucknuts" list.
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Connor. In spite of your kindly ad hominem attacks, you still failed to answer my question. Perhaps this is my fault let me phrase this more clearly. Is withholding aid murder? You seem to think so.
PS If your persist in acting like a troll some people may call you one.
-Eli
If voting mattered, they'd make it illegal.
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