Are we living in a modern day facist Nazi Germany
POSTED BY: piratejenny
UPDATED: Friday, March 11, 2005 19:39
VIEWED: 21383
PAGE 9 of 10
"In fact, fascists opposed what they called liberals, and by ‘liberals’ they weren’t talking about Postmodern Liberals, but rather people who supported laissez-faire, or a free-market economy."
??????
Finn- perhaps a history refresher would do you some good? In addition to rounding up Gypsies, the Nazis also rounded up Communists and Socialists. They also made slave labor available to their favorite corporations.
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Quote:What does that prove? The Nazis turned on the Italians too, their supposed allies. So what? I didn’t say there was honor among Fascists. Communism was the biggest rival of fascism. That doesn’t mean there wasn’t agreement on many things, and one area that they did agree on was on the issue of the bourgeois. Ultimately, both Fascists and communists were anti-capitalists. They held themselves out to be the savior of the working class. Marx called it the Proletariat, Nazis called it the Volksgemeinschaf, but it was all socialism.
Originally posted by SignyM:
Finn- perhaps a history refresher would do you some good? In addition to rounding up Gypsies, the Nazis also rounded up Communists and Socialists. They also made slave labor available to their favorite corporations.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
What does that prove? The Nazis turned on the Italians too, their supposed allies. So what? I didn’t say there was honor among Fascists. Communism was the biggest rival of fascism. That doesn’t mean there wasn’t agreement on many things, and one area that they did agree on was on the issue of the bourgeois. Ultimately, both Fascists and communists were anti-capitalists. They held themselves out to be the savior of the working class. Marx called it the Proletariat, Nazis called it the Volksgemeinschaf, but it was all socialism.
Ok, a translation from my wife:
Proletariat - working class/lower social class/little education. Somewhere along those lines. Please keep in mind that Marx used it as a scientific term in his theories.
Volksgemeinschaf (proper spelling "Volksgemeinschaft") - The community of the people, but with a special emphasis on German/Arian including all of the people (NOTE: not just the Proletariat).
Thus you are comparing apples and oranges. You are throwing terms around without proper understanding of there meaning.
There's a good reason why there are different names for these different theories of society. Socialism, Marxism, Leninism, Stalinism. All these are very different from Nazism, which although had Socialism in its name, was far from Socialism.
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"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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I don't think Finn understands the distinctions. The fascists actually courted and supported the non-Jewish burgeoise no matter that they presented themselves as a friend of the common person. It's not the first time that a power group presented itself one way but did the opposite. Rather than focusing on what power groups say about themselves, we might want to look at what they did and how the negative and positive effects were distributed.
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It seems that its hard for some to wrap their brains around America on its way to being Facist because its not happening exactly like Nazi Germany...
history can repeat itself but that its not going to happen the exact same way
I and most people only use Germany as a comparison not as an exact model of whats happening in America..the times and the circumstances and the country as a whole are diffrent is Bush Hilter of course not...
I'm wondering what its going to take before people see the signs..there are alot of diffrent things happening all over... right now in California they are trying to pass laws to take away so many workers rights
one only has to look at the prison industrial complex to see that its becoming slave labor, you've got corporations privatizing prisons, but nobody cares because they are crimnals..it hasn't dawned on people that laws might be passed to make sure these corporations have a steady stream of slave labor, no jobs leads to crime
This new bankruptcy law that they are trying to pass is a direct result of credit Card companies being one of Bush's biggest supporters
Under the homeland security act the federal government has more power and control over our lives..then ever before
and there is so much more going on
maybe if you looked at these issues seperately, they wouldn't seem so bad but they are adding up daily every month its something new..you start looking at all of this stuff together and seeing how each one is a peice of the puzzle the picture starts to become more clear!!
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Quote:This is classic. It’s pure doublethink. Vizzini tells me that “there’s a good reason why there are different name for these different theories of society.” But then when he gets to Nazism, that is National Socialism, all of the sudden, those “good reasons” disappear.
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
There's a good reason why there are different names for these different theories of society. Socialism, Marxism, Leninism, Stalinism. All these are very different from Nazism, which although had Socialism in its name, was far from Socialism.
One naturally doesn’t wish to believe that this is the only logic he is using, but it is. Maybe you’re right Vizzini, maybe there really is a good reason why Nazism is called National Socialism. Possibly because it’s a kind of socialism? Oh no, that entirely logical deduction doesn’t support your insane ranting; it can’t possibly be true. INCONCEIVABLE!!!!!
You’re a source unending amusement. And that’s a good thing.
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Quote:I understand the distinction. Perhaps not as well as Vizzini’s wife, because my German’s not very good, but I never claimed they were exactly the same thing.
Originally posted by SignyM:
I don't think Finn understands the distinctions. The fascists actually courted and supported the non-Jewish burgeoise no matter that they presented themselves as a friend of the common person. It's not the first time that a power group presented itself one way but did the opposite. Rather than focusing on what power groups say about themselves, we might want to look at what they did and how the negative and positive effects were distributed.
How the effects are distributed makes little difference on how Socialism is defined. Socialism is what it is, negative or positive effects, notwithstanding. And what a group says about its philosophies goes a long way to describing those philosophies, and without a doubt, both Mussolini and Hitler described themselves in very Socialist terms. No Surprise for Mussolini, he was a communist after all. Hitler was probably more an opportunist, but like many dictators I’m sure Hitler realized the benefit to government control of the economy.
As far as what they actually did, well both Hitler and Mussolini were good for their Left-wing Socialist rhetoric. Like Communist Russia Hitler abolished Unions and replaced them with state-run labor organizations, hunted down and exterminated rival Leftists, and waged war against small businesses while reigning in the bigger businesses with heavy government regulation culminating in an economy centralized on Hitler’s Nazi party. The major distinction between Nazism and Bolshevism was that corporations would be privately owned, but still heavily regulated. Both Hitler and Mussolini were right little Left-wing revolutionaries including nationalization of education, healthcare and transportation. Under the Nazi regime and Communist regime of East Germany, Germany had a government run social welfare system.
Sure, Nazi Germany could have been more Left-wing if they had instituted a government ownership of land and capital, making them basically a Communism. But just because Fascism may have been to the right of Communism doesn’t mean it was to the right of everything else.
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You have some right things in there and some wrong things in there. But to tear your arguments apart would require time that I don't have.
But to be certain your name calling (although I'm not sure how Vizzini is, but you seem to be using it as such) just tells of your level.
But, you seem to always change what you are arugueing for. Could you state your arguments in a few paragraphs so that we can all know what the hell you are trying to say.
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"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
But to be certain your name calling (although I'm not sure how Vizzini is, but you seem to be using it as such) just tells of your level.
Finn's being hip with his pop culture references. Vizzini was a character in The Princess Bride who thought himself smarter than he actually was. I guess it's a more civil attack than calling someone a traitor or a Saddam lover or a feminazi. It's kind of like the difference between what you would hear on NPR versus more of a Limbaugh type show.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I don't think Finn understands the distinctions.
I concurr.
I also don't think that he is aware that people can call themselves one thing and behave in a completely different way.
The Nazi's may have put socialist in there name, but naming yourself that doesn't a socialist one make. Behaviour is what does that, and if one looks at the history books, the Nazi's were everything but.
EDIT: By the way, just thought you might get a kick out of this. From theWife Finns spelling of Volksgemeinschaf (which is wrong) would translate to (if it was a word) "community evil sheep."
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"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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