Are we living in a modern day facist Nazi Germany

POSTED BY: piratejenny
UPDATED: Friday, March 11, 2005 19:39
VIEWED: 21383
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SIGMANUNKI

Thursday, March 10, 2005 3:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

If we are living in a fascist state, then show me evidence of it. I'm very easy to convince of just about anything, if you have conclusive evidence or at least evidence.

You should really learn to read posts.

I'll quote myself:
"although there isn't an exact match between Nazi Germany and the US today, there are enough parallels to be very frightened and concerned."
and:
"NOTE: The world isn't black and white, so don't expect every answer to be likethat. Shades of grey people."
and:
"enough similarities to warrent concern that the US today is headed in the same direction with potentially similar outcomes."

So, I never actually stated that you are currently living in a fascist state. I said that your society is headed in that direction and there is clear evidence for it.

Again, the society you live in is definitly headed in that direction and is closing in on the mark. The parallels to Nazi Germany are frightening if you would actually pay attention.

There are several points here. Dispite the title, give the content a chance.
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2004/01/26/hs
orensen.DTL

Also, I don't have the time to look it up, but I remember reports that the US was building a prison for the suspected terrorists. They would be sent there until they were dealt with. But since they are terrorists they could sit there for the rest of there lives without due process. Can we say modern day Goolog?

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

RUE

Thursday, March 10, 2005 5:21 AM

Just a quick post for all of you who think the government is only watching terrorists:
http://www.matrix-at.org/ Project — a pilot effort to increase and enhance the exchange of sensitive terrorism and other criminal activity information between local, state, and federal law enforcement agencies

And what is the harm? At the very least, large databases are a gold-mine for criminals:
http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2005/03/09/data/index.html
U.S. citizens' data possibly compromised
March 9, 2005 | New York -- Hackers commandeered a database owned by information industry giant Lexis Nexis, gaining access to the personal files of as many as 32,000 people, company officials said Wednesday.(Lexis Nexis bought up Seisint, which is the company that created the MATRIX database.)

But it goes even further: rather than being passive and waiting for people to hire its capabilities, Seisint made up a data base of 120,000 people that IT profiled as potential terrorists, and turned the list over to the government. Nearly everybody on the list was not, is not, and never will be a terrorist. But the government investigated people on the list, and there is no guarantee the list was ever discarded. http://www.wired.com/news/conflict/0,2100,63535,00.html?tw=wn_2polihea
d%22

Quote:
Before helping to launch the criminal information project known as Matrix, a database contractor gave U.S. and Florida authorities the names of 120,000 people who showed a statistical likelihood of being terrorists — sparking some investigations and arrests.

These 120,000 people are now under suspicion just because they were winnowed out of a database.

If the actual keeping publicly available data is not an invasion of privacy, the free-lance searching in the absence of a crime was: there was no 'reasonable suspicion'. Are you willing to give up 'innocent until proven guilty' and 'freedom from unreasonable search and seizure?'

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Thursday, March 10, 2005 6:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
So, I never actually stated that you are currently living in a fascist state. I said that your society is headed in that direction and there is clear evidence for it.

Once again, I’ve seen no such evidence. Just wild speculation and things people conveniently have no time to look up. I really think it is despicable to bandy the Nazi memory around for political gain. Nazi Germany was an atrocity of mankind, and some Liberals are either ignorant of what Nazi Germany really was or they don’t care. I think it’s an insulting display of morose, tactless ignorance to make these kinds of unfounded accusations.

SIGMANUNKI

Thursday, March 10, 2005 6:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

Nazi Germany was an atrocity of mankind, and some Liberals are either ignorant of what Nazi Germany really was or they don’t care. I think it’s an insulting display of morose, tactless ignorance to make these kinds of unfounded accusations.

< sarsasm >
Yah Finn, it's absolutly terrible that those Germans that learn all about Nazi Germany so that it'll never happen again are making comparisons.

Perhaps you should go over there to set the record straight on what happened in there history, because clearly you have knowledge that they don't.
< /sarcasm >

If you would actually open your mind and stop being so opinionated perhaps you'd learn something. Read the link I gave and the link off that. Read Rue's post and his links.

But perhaps you don't want to give into facts because it create a breeze across that house of cards that is your delusion.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

SOUPCATCHER

Thursday, March 10, 2005 10:13 AM

Lots of words flying back and forth today.

Just a quick nitpick on your pronouns, SigmaNunki (and Rue will correct me if I'm wrong). I think it should read, "Read Rue's post and her links."

I've avoided posting in this thread mostly because of the title (I've been periodically reading the entries) but I figured I might as well wade in during the few minutes I'm here.

Do I think the US is a modern day fascist state? Nope. Is the potential there? Absolutely. Any democracy has the potential to become a fascist state. Are we heading in that direction? I'm not sure but I'm worried. Some of the elements of fascism are corporatism, nationalism, and anti-liberalism - all of which are present to some degree in the US. However, fascism in the US would look completely different than German or Italian fascism because of the nationalistic component. In other words, extremely context dependent.

Side note. If I genuinely thought the US was already a fascist state I would not be proudly trumpeting my liberalism on a message board. Since I have identified myself as such on a couple of occasions, I must not be too worried.

Additional side note. I finally got around to reading David Neiwert's thought provoking essay, "The Rise of Pseudo Fascism" (which won a Koufax for best series of 2004 - for those of you who don't know what a Koufax is, you might not get much out of the essay). I would recommend it to anyone on the left side of the political spectrum. You can find links to the essay in either pdf or html in the sidebar of David's blog, Orcinus ( http://dneiwert.blogspot.com). I especially appreciated Chapter 2, which I'm sure has influenced the way I think about fascism in general.

PIRATEJENNY

Thursday, March 10, 2005 12:13 PM

Quote:
. 5 bush hate-speech posts in an hour... You are a busy little hate monger...

1rst off lets get one thing straight if nothing else..I don't hate period...I don't hate anyone not even Bush...I'll say it again..Bush and his corrupt administration scare me..

Quote:
. I don't agree with bush on a lot of levels...
I do agree with his economic policy. ...

I'm curious can you elaborate on the economic policy you agree with so much

Quote:
. being a small business owner (read NOT BIG BUSINESS) I feel his actions make my company more viable and in turn more capable to hire "you poor common folk"...

what kind of business do you own, as a small Business owner you are going to be the 1rst to be effected by Bush's economic plan..you won't be able to hire poor Common folk, probably will have to lay them off and I hope you have some money saved up because you are going to need it!!

Quote:
. please understand that America is based on a constitutional republic: The government is based on rules set forth by the founding fathers. Your Socialized medical, Socialized retirement, and Socialized society is not in our constitution. .

yep America is a Republic, but wake up , we are not living in the America of our founding fathers, we are not living in the America where most people were self sustaining and living on farms or living in interdependent communities that relied on eachother..and again think about how America accumulated much of its wealth..through a free labor system slavery

the America of today most people live in Urban centers and their lively hood is dependent on economics, the majority of people are not self sustaining... without alot of these social programs what kind of lives would most people have?? the obvious answer is slave labor ..these social programs have managed to keep America thriving

Quote:
. and those stating the America is not the greatest country in the world. Please inform me which one is... I want to live there..

well its true America isn't the greatest country in the world...its certainly not the worst and America has the potential to be a great country

but right now I could name some countries that are are better then America ..Sweeden...the Netherlands..are they perfect no ...no country is we can defintely do better!!

PIRATEJENNY

Thursday, March 10, 2005 12:23 PM

Quote:
If we are living in a fascist state, then show me evidence of it. I'm very easy to convince of just about anything, if you have conclusive evidence or at least evidence.

nobody is saying that we are living in a facist state...

what we are saying is that, there are things happening in this country right now that is leading to Facism ...that is the road that we are traveling on if something isn't done to change it

you talk about Liberals and Conservatives as if that somehow sums up everything forget the labels, because whats happening is so beyond that.

SIGNYM

Thursday, March 10, 2005 2:19 PM

Finn- just so we are clear on what Fascism is, why don't you tell us? Please be specific. Give examples, assume that we don't know what you mean. Nothin bolixes up a conversaiton more than people meaning different things when using the same words.

SIGNYM

Thursday, March 10, 2005 2:37 PM

Soup- Re my previous post, most ppl don't understand that state-enforced corporatism is an essential component of fascism. They seem to think it's related to killing Jews. Hey, I don't see Jews in concentration camps- do you??? Must not be fascism!

A lot of people who think they are libertarians are actually nascent fascists because of their love affair with corporations. A fascinating metamorphosis occurs when state power- the anathema of libertarianism- is directed to the care, feeding and protection of corporations... then suddenly, all reservations about the use of state power disappear. True libertarians would be up in arms (metaphorically speaking) about the growth of the Federal government under Bush, and its increasing intrusion into our pesonal lives.

As far as the willingness of the government to round up people en masse... perhaps you've heard of the ankle-bracelet program for ALL immigrants of undetermined status? These are NOT "illegal immigrants", but people who have gone through the system whose status is being determined or is on appeal... The program is such thay they have to be at home every day between 6PM and 6AM, and report twice a week in person to (in essence) a parole officer. Basically, they are under "house arrest". The reason for the program is because the immigration files are such a mess that they can't reliably re-contact a large portion of their caseload because they can't find phone numbers and addresses! The program is being tested on a few hundred, if "successful" it will apply to over 12,000 people. Now, remember, these are NOT "illegal immigrants", but people who have applied through the system, who live and work here, people who have not been convicted or even accused of ANY crime... just people that the government is apparently too disorganized to keep track of by ordinary means (like keeping a phone number on file).

Don't forget that before the Nazis rounded up the Jews, they rounded up Gypsies.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Thursday, March 10, 2005 3:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
what we are saying is that, there are things happening in this country right now that is leading to Facism ...that is the road that we are traveling on if something isn't done to change it

you talk about Liberals and Conservatives as if that somehow sums up everything forget the labels, because whats happening is so beyond that.

You’re going to have to do better then that. Because what I see in most of the posts in this thread drawing the fascism comparison is not fascism, but Postmodern Liberalism.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Finn- just so we are clear on what Fascism is, why don't you tell us? Please be specific. Give examples, assume that we don't know what you mean. Nothin bolixes up a conversaiton more than people meaning different things when using the same words.

Fascism: http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=fascism

I don’t deny that it could happen here; it could happen anywhere. But that notion alone is not enough to support the idea that it is happening. However, this isn’t really a hypothetical discussion of what could happen, but rather an anti-Bush screed, in most cases. It seems that anytime Liberals disagree with someone, sooner or later some of them will come up with accusations of Fascism, generally based on some whimsical hypothetical or rhetorical stunt. Liberals made similar kinds of accusations during Reagan’s Presidency, however, interesting enough, the evil specter of Fascism didn’t seem to reappear until W, oddly bypassing Clinton.

Nazi Germany was decidedly socialist, and Hitler would have had more in common, both politically and economically, with Stalin then with Reagan or Bush. In fact, fascists opposed what they called liberals, and by ‘liberals’ they weren’t talking about Postmodern Liberals, but rather people who supported laissez-faire, or a free-market economy. Today one who supports a free-market economy is far more likely to be a Conservative, then a Postmodern Liberal. Both Hitler and Mussolini portrayed themselves as champions of the working class. If one were going to draw reckless comparisons, one could just as easily, if not more so, claim that American Democratic Party is heading towards Fascism. Of course that comparison wouldn’t sit well with most Postmodern Liberal ideologues, would it? Yet one can make it, although perhaps not genuinely.

However, I would be reticent to do so, because as I’ve stated in another discussion on this board, one encounters an error due to discrete quantization in such comparisons. That is that just because one can find that some of the tenets of a certain philosophy correlate with some of the tenets of another, does not mean the two are similar, since agreeing with something can be quite different then agreeing with something to some degree.

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