American education scores v. other countries
POSTED BY: Niki2
UPDATED: Wednesday, August 27, 2025 03:52
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This came up in the creationism thread, so I looked further.Quote:
Again I couldn't find precisely which countries were utilized in the testing, but at least it gives a wider group.
Fifteen-year-old students in the U.S. ranked 25th of 34 countries on an international math test and scored in the middle of the pack in science and reading, raising concerns the U.S. isn’t prepared to succeed in the global economy.
Teenagers from South Korea and Finland led in almost all academic categories on the 2009 Program for International Student Assessment, according to the Paris-based Organization of Economic Cooperation and Development, which represents 34 countries. U.S. students ranked 17th in science and 14th in reading. The U.S. government considers the OECD test one of the most comprehensive measures of international achievement.
.....
In all, 470,000 students worldwide took the exam. The test also measured countries and regions outside the OECD, or a total of 65 countries and economies. For the first time, the test broke out the performance of China’s Shanghai region, which topped even Finland and South Korea.
U.S. 15-year-olds had an average score of 487 in math, below the OECD average of 496 on a zero to 1,000-point scale. South Korean students scored 546 and those from Finland scored 541. On an absolute basis, students from 24 of 34 OECD countries had higher scores than U.S. students, though the Education Department said 17 were better on a statistically significant basis.
U.S. math scores rose from 474 in 2006, when they ranked 25th of 30 OECD countries.
The average U.S. reading score of 500 ranked 14th among OECD countries, which were led by South Korea, Finland and Canada. Only six had scores that were better statistically, the Education Department said. http://gideonlearning.wordpress.com/2010/12/07/us-ranked-25th-out-of-3
4-in-international-math-test/
The study can be found easily on the internet, but looking for a lsit of the countries involved has found no such list. Bits and pieces I've found:Quote:
far behind the highest scoring countries, including South Korea, Finland and Singapore, Hong Kong and Shanghai in China and Canada.
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The PISA exam is one of a handful of tests that compare educational levels across nations, and is considered to be the most comprehensive. The test focuses on how well students are able to apply their knowledge in math, reading and science to real-life situations. Some 470,000 students took the test in 2009 in 65 countries and educational systems, from poor, underdeveloped nations to the most wealthy......
Between 1995 and 2008, for example, the United States slipped from ranking second in college graduation rates to 13th, according to the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, the Paris-based organization that develops and administers the PISA exam. Of 34 OECD countries, only 8 have a lower high school graduation rate.
.....
The impact of improving math, reading and science scores could be radical: A recent OECD study with Stanford University projected that if the U.S. boosted its average PISA scores by 25 points over the next 20 years, there would be a gain of $41 trillion in the U.S. economy over the lifetime of the generation born in 2010.
.....
The top performers in reading were South Korea, Finland, Hong Kong and Shanghai in China, Singapore, Canada, New Zealand, Japan and Australia.
The gap between the highest performing countries and the United States is stark — students in Shanghai, for example, had an average score of 556 points in reading, 56 points higher than the 500-point average reached by United States students. Shanghai students also posted the highest score in math, with an average of 600 points, 113 points higher than the 487 point U.S. average
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The United States spends more per student, on average, than other countries. In the 2009 PISA study, only Luxembourg spent more per student. The report notes that countries like Estonia
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First, let me say, that "Math tests", the like they're siting, are almost meaningless. The only math courses I believe are worth any merit for 95% of people of any countries are simply basic math and the math portion of Consumer Ed that teaches the ability to budget their spending and balance a checkbook. I'll even take that a step further and say that most people who pay somebody else to do their taxes today should at least know enough math and government legalese to do their own taxes and know where their money is going and how they can save more by being their own best agent.
Any math beyond that short of accounting (which probably should be learned by all Americans), which I KNOW is what the article sites, is math that will only be used by engineers or Math Teachers.
Who gives a shit if the average American doesn't know advanced Algebra or Geometry or Trigonometry? I certainly don't think we'd be a better nation if twice as many Americans understood Chemistry or how to play the piano.
The reading thing does bother me. I've never had a problem with it, and I've actually never known anybody who did. But.... let's be honest here... the demographics that are included in this study today simply weren't included 20 years ago when these studies were out and we were at the top. As many Mexicans like my step-dad who know English better than a lot of my friends growing up, and as many literate blacks there are out there, there are so many of them who don't learn anything worthwhile at home and even when they're legally forced to go to school, it's some of the shittiest schools in the world.
Since we're "all in this together" now, we have to take the bad with the good and realize that as a nation of the citizens here the literate ones are brought down to such a low ranking, but all I can say is that only about 1% of the people I went through K-12 with can't read a book or do simple math.
Without trying to further sound racist.... the fact that Canada comes up in the top 3 illustrates my point perfectly. If black people liked the cold, they'd be dominating professional Hockey like they do nearly every other sport now. Why would Mexican's even exert the effort to climb that high up North America after swimming here?
Why don't we really test it Niki?
Find a way for us to get these tests, and let's see how we can do, even though many of us haven't been in High School for a long time.
I got a 29 on my ACT on my first and only try. I didn't go to any study courses. My girlfriend broke up with me over the phone the night before and I woke up after only 3 hours of drunken sleep before I took it.
My parents were thrilled I did "so well". I was disgusted with the results, but since I didn't have any government money for college otherwise, I had already resigned myself to going to community college and didn't bother re-taking it.
As a side... I scored 34 in the English/Reading part. I scored in the high 20's for science and the low 20's for the MATH part.
Yup... the guy who (sorry for bringing it all up again Kwick) owns his own house with no mortgage, has a 790 Trans-Union credit score, owns his car without a bill, and just reduced his property tax burden by nearly 50%..... yeah... he didn't score so well in the "MATH" that is supposedly important to all of us, at least, according to tests.....
The TRUE important things kids growing up should learn..... (But largely don't learn in US public school)
1) How to create a meaningful budget and to resist the urge to "keep up with the joneses"
2) Addition, Subtraction, Multiplication, Division, Fractions, Complex Fractions, and how to manipulate decimals, as well as at least a minor understanding of Accounting, and Micro and Macro Economics.
3) The ability to read at at least a 12th grade level before college or straight up joining the workforce without college.
4) Prob
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Quote:
any more than I give a shit about the genetic make up of Hydrogen DiOxide.
Hello,
While I agree that advanced math probably isn't useful to the vast majority of people, I think a general understanding of science is. Enough to not say things like this, in any event. (I will assume you were being funny.)
I consider language to be the most valuable component of education. I think some emphasis on technical electives like electronics, mechanics, plumbing, practical carpentry, and home economics are useful for almost everyone.
Courses in spreadsheets, power point, databases, and even video editing would be a great boon to the vast majority of office workers and families.
I think art is more useful than you realize, Jack. The ability to express yourself in an artistic manner is a great stress reliever and a wonderful focus for the mind. It can help keep people from going nuts. And performance arts like drama can help immensely in social interaction and speech-giving in work environments.
Physical education, of course, for those so inclined. Not mandatory, though. There's plenty of walking from class to class to keep children from being sedentary, so that's not a concern. And those with an aptitude or desire can pursue it further. I'd love to see martial arts on the curriculum in High School. I had to go outside of my school to get that training.
The main thing I believe is that High School should be largely elective driven, because I think by the time you are in the 10th grade you have your basic skills and need to be trained for real life in your areas of interest. I think High School should practically be an 'intro to college' environment where you explore yourself, figure out what you want to do, and become ready to transition to work, a technical school, or college.
I don't really feel it is effectively being that now. At least, my High School was marginal in this regard.
--Anthony
Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz
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Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
I'll even take that a step further and say that most people who pay somebody else to do their taxes today should at least know enough math and government legalese to do their own taxes and know where their money is going and how they can save more by being their own best agent.
I used to agree with that. When I was in High School, they had a unit in Social Studies, history maybe, where they made us work out 1040A's and 1040's using supplied data, then gave us a graded test on it. Got scored and graded like any other, counted toward our semester grade.
I did my own taxes, my wife's, and my adult daughters'. Some years ago, the tax laws got so complex that I made mistakes 3 years running, struggled to find small refunds that got reduced. One year I owed money. The next year I went to H&R Block, paid $ 200, and STILL got an almost $3000 refund from California and the Feds.
And I'm only a simple working guy, no interest income, no mortgage, no tricky deductions, I file the 1040EZ and the 540EZ.
California tax law used to be simple, the form easy to understand, options few, the math logical and easy to understand; and the Federal, even the 1040A, complicated, long and full of not-understandable categories.
Now, the last 10 years, it's reversed: the 1040EZ and 1040A are really simple, and the California 540A and even 540EZ are full of complicated, irrelevant crap that I don't understand. And like I said, I'm not doing anything special- 2 W-2's and no special financial stuff. And I got tired of getting it wrong, so now I got to H&R. They work for me, in the sense of easy and successfully, and the $200 I pay them is worth it for the grief they save me. Turbo Tax might work as well, but I don't like to lay out the $ 50 up front-- H & will take it's $200 outta the Refund when it comes.
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Hey Anthony,
I agree a general knowledge of science is useful. We don't want people running around saying the world is flat 
. I had a firm grasp on Biology and Astronomy. My biology teacher was actually one of the co-writers of the text book that we used in class and I got an A. Come Chemestry though..... wow.... I did just barely better in College than I did in HS. It's so...... boring..... I guess if I channeled my inner-unibomber, I might have found merit in spending any time at all even opening that book, but I just couldn't bring myself to care anymore about Chemestry than I could College Algebra or Trig. There is just no place in my life for that stuff.....
Language is the most important part, and that I agree wholly. The ability to express ideas with words, and for somebody else to understand them. The ability to weave tens or hundreds or thousands or millions of words together to create something much more meaningful than any single one of those words alone could ever be is only matched in importance by there being an audience that is equipped to understand the meaning.
All of the "home improvement" and maintenance issues you mentioned should at least have a "starter-course" in HS. You'd never be able to learn everything in one semester or year, but at least people would have a better idea of what to Google when somehting went wrong today if they had that background. The same for any computer related fields.
I love art. I took up guitar on my own and although I'll never be any good at it, it is a great stress reliever. I took "Art" all 4 years in HS and won a few awards and even had a piece of work featured in full color on our HS's art/drama quarterly leaflet. Hehe... all the time I spend here these days drinking and posting I used to spend alone creating things with many different media without the help of intoxicants. It was rather therapeutic.
The only reason I didn't mention Art is because as a utility for life it wasn't a great tool at improving your current financial situation. I agree with you that I was wrong about this though. I've lost my artistry, oustide of what I create when I rehab my house anyway. I never needed any drugs or booze when I was spending a lot of my free time expressing myself that way, and ever since I picked up those habits I've let that artistry go. It's been easily 10 years since I've made a new creation on paper with charcoal or paint or oil sticks or any mixture of them.
Physical Education... of course... how could I miss that? Sorry man... I'm about 15 lbs of beer weight over what I should be today, but I can still haul anything my rehabbing or job requires without much effort. I just take it for granted today. I guess I left it out because it never really taught anybody anything. Those who were born to be athletic didn't learn anything from it because they just naturally excelled at PE. Those who didn't win the genetic lotto struggled through PE and were made fun of by the TRUE Dicks in the classes. I'm all for PE if there is meaningful reform of it. It's not just about playing a sport for 2 weeks straight and making it obvious to both sexes who the "wheat" and the "chaff" are.... It should be about encouraging a healthy lifestyle and how, no matter what your "natural" physical state is that you can always improve upon it and convincing you that you should strive for it.
I think I had my basic skills well before 10th grade, but like I said before it wasn't because I was a genius even though I mistakenly thought I was. I was just taught at home early on and rode that tidal wave through most of the public school system. What I would give to have been able to learn meaningful things for my last 2 years of HS though that weren't part of the standard curriculum.
Your thought here gives me an idea though.....
Why wait until the 10th grade to allow students to start &q
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Wrestlemania off the top ropes!
Linda McMahon defends disbanding the Department of Education on national tour
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/linda-mcmahon-department-of-education-nat
ional-tour/
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Most current:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programme_for_International_Student_Asse
ssment
Tested every 3 years, so newest is 2022. Next results released in 2026.
U.S. has continued the horrific performance of Dept of Education since 2010.
So, of the 34 (or 32) countries listed in the OP, U.S. is now ranked 27th of 34 in Math. The OP lists 25th - so we have continued our downward progress.
Caveat: I did not find Vietnam listed anywhere from 12 years ago, but they are 2 ahead of US now, so maybe U.S. is 26th of 34.
U.S. is still below 500 for Science, but above 500 for Reading - at a time when no students can read anything but text message acronyms and gibberish.
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