Crossover Fanfic Discussion

POSTED BY: zoid
UPDATED: Sunday, February 13, 2005 19:23
VIEWED: 5230
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ZOID

Sunday, February 13, 2005 2:56 PM

Hotpoint argued thus:

Quote:
...would be to go against established facts in my opinion.

All your points were excellent, and I decided not to reiterate them, since they're in the post just atop this one. Mostly though, you're disagreeing that the Alliance -- in the main -- resembles modern societies.

And from what we've seen -- through Mal and his crews' eyes -- I'd agree with you. However, as I said above, this is a myopic viewpoint. We've only been shown Persephone, among Core Worlds, and it looked pretty spiffy for the common folk. The docks and ghettos and rustic backworlds where Mal and crew normally ply their trade can hardly be considered indicative of the Alliance way of life, any more than down-bayou Louisiana resembles New York City. I daresay a proper megacorp like BlueSun would have its wage slaves pampered with every conceivable frippery they desire, like our consumer-driven capitalist society today. And if the IAV Cruiser Dortmund looks like a skyscraping city in space, how must the actual cities on Sihnon, etc., appear? Inara describes Sihnon's nightside as a planet of light, which causes a wealthy client to wonder how she could leave such opulence for the boondocks where they live. Also, the opening monologues for Firefly, which appear to have been lost in time, gave a similar viewpoint: It's a society of 'have' planets and 'have not' planets.

So, we haven't been shown true Alliance culture and society, except in peripheral glances. All we've seen in any detail is the Border Worlds, which are quite as you've described them. On the Core World of Persephone we saw a junk yard, a hospital (quite advanced, wouldn't you agree?) and a city side street where Jayne did the deal for costumes (paved, clean, electronic access, citizens well-clothed).

While there's scarcely enough hard evidence to go on, I must still counter-argue that the Core Worlds are very advanced and the Rim or Border Worlds are as technologically and sociologically challenged as the Third World is today. I think Joss was trying to get us to realize that there is a huge gap in the quality of life for West and East, here on Earth today. The 'haves' and 'have nots'.

And as we know, the 'have nots' are getting increasingly pissed about it. But I still believe that the Core Worlds are synonymous with modern capitalist democracies, while the Rim is analogous to the Third World. This makes the Alliance more akin to the UN than NATO, only with a touch more multinationalist flair economically than current. We all have our own opinions on how well that whole UN thing is working out...

With Joss, we must read between the lines, and purposely see things from the other side's perspective, too. The story on the surface is entertaining, but it's less than half of the entire message Joss is sending. That subcontext, even if we only perceive subconsciously, is what makes FF 'verse so real and emotionally engaging.

Of course, it helps to remember that zoid still believes the main reason Firefly was so badly treated is because this subcontextual message scared the living sh*t out of F*x's pinheaded little capitalistic nationalists...

Respectfully,

zoid
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"Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad of Serenity

HOTPOINT

Sunday, February 13, 2005 4:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
We've only been shown Persephone, among Core Worlds, and it looked pretty spiffy for the common folk.

It's a society of 'have' planets and 'have not' planets.

Yes but since the Alliance has direct rule over these colonies First World/Third World is not really a completely valid comparison in that they are more like states within the US than states within the UN.

Parts of Louisiana and New York may have differentials in living standards but they don't have slavery legal in one and not the other (well not since the Civil War

).

Remember just because the society is high-tech doesn't mean it has to be advanced politically. Even a Feudal or Imperial society could easily exist in an industrial system it would just have severe drawbacks.

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
So, we haven't been shown true Alliance culture and society, except in peripheral glances. All we've seen in any detail is the Border Worlds, which are quite as you've described them.

Yes but we know that the Alliance permits this situation within their own borders so even if things are different in the core the chances that it could be an identical twin of our own modern capitalist democracies is remote.

People today may exploit the Third World economically but would we in the UK allow slavery to be practiced in the Falkland Islands? We would have two hundred years ago which is why I think an 18th Century model is better. It could still be democratic to some extent, and even capitalist (though not the capitalism of Adam Smith or John Maynard Keynes)

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
I think Joss was trying to get us to realize that there is a huge gap in the quality of life for West and East, here on Earth today. The 'haves' and 'have nots'.

I'll go along with that but regardless the situation still doesn't mesh with the notion that the Core Worlds are like California and New York and the Rim Worlds are Alabama

(Apologies to anyone from Alabama just making a point)

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:

And as we know, the 'have nots' are getting increasingly pissed about it. But I still believe that the Core Worlds are synonymous with modern capitalist democracies, while the Rim is analogous to the Third World. This makes the Alliance more akin to the UN than NATO, only with a touch more multinationalist flair economically than current. We all have our own opinions on how well that whole UN thing is working out...

The analogy doesn't work in my opinion because the Rim Worlds are part of the Alliance and governed by it. Remember the model for the War was the American Civil War so Hera is Arkansas not Angola.

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:

With Joss, we must read between the lines, and purposely see things from the other side's perspective, too.

I am looking from the Alliance perspective. The British didn't think they were the bad guys during the days of Empire either

...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

RUTHIE

Sunday, February 13, 2005 5:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
On both sides of every conflict are human beings who feel (more or less) fully justified for their beliefs and actions. And since logic so seldom applies in matters of belief, both sides may argue quite compellingly -- and with equal lunacy -- that their cause is Just.

Oh yes, I'm right with you there - one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. I've got two specific problems with your characterization of Zarek and Roslyn, though, which are based on eps of BSG which I don't think have aired in the USA yet. I could be more specific if you like, but it would probably be a spoiler.

Quote:
How about a little pertinent thought experiment? From a Firefly-only perspective, how would the common Alliance citizen (surely, 98% of them are good, honest folk) feel about the failed Independent Revolt, and those who espoused that cause? Do you think they'd feel as patriotic about their way of life as we do,

OK, I'll play.
EVERYWHERE we have seen much of life in Firefly there seems to be a sharp dividion between the 'haves' and the 'have nots'. Even on the rich planet where Saffron's 'husband' lived in Trash, there were servants.

Now, some people can be quite happy being servants. British society functioned perfectly well on that premise for 100's of years. However, there comes a time when the people at the bottom of the pile start to think that they could run things better than those at the top - and do something about it.

So, I'd say that, of those 98% of citizens who are happy with the allience, the few 'on top' would think the Independants were terrible, the majority 'underneath' would start wondering if they had a point.

I think, however, we may be seeing the War slightly differently. From your post, it sounds as though you see the war as an attempt from the Independants to break away from an established Allience, wheras I understood it as an attempt to refuse to be taken into the initial formation of the Allience.

*******************
Ruthie
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By the data to date, there is only one animal in the Galaxy dangerous to man - man himself. So he must supply his own indispensable competition. He has no enemy to help him. (R.A.Heinlein)

HOTPOINT

Sunday, February 13, 2005 7:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ruthie:
I think, however, we may be seeing the War slightly differently. From your post, it sounds as though you see the war as an attempt from the Independants to break away from an established Allience, wheras I understood it as an attempt to refuse to be taken into the initial formation of the Allience.

I have another view again in that I see the Core Worlds pre-war as already being in the Alliance and the war was due to them expanding their control to the previously independent colonies.

This brings me back to my model of the Alliance as being like 18th Century Britain as it shifted from informal Empire to direct control with the large interplanetary conglomerates and the private terraforming concerns playing the role of the East India and Hudson Bay companies.

...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

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