Real World Event Discussions
Russia Invades Ukraine. Again
POSTED BY: captaincrunch
UPDATED: Sunday, September 6, 2026 21:09
VIEWED: 562266
PAGE 519 of 1104
Wednesday, November 15, 2023 5:10 PM
Quote:Ukraine uses cluster munitions because it is the artillery equivalent of shotgun shells. Ukrainians couldn't aim worth a damn, but since clusters spread the shrapnel over a wider area the Ukrainian gunners are more likely to kill something other than earthworms.
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Unlike Ukraine, Russia doesn't use cluster munitions altho it has them. They use thermobaric weapons instead, possibly even more deadly but at least there are no unexploded munitions laying around for their own soldiers to stumble over should they advance into Ukrainian held territory.
Reuters reported on November 12 that German Chancellor Olaf Scholz’s governing coalition has agreed in principle to double Germany’s military aid to Ukraine next year to €8 billion.[17]
Ukrainian Minister of Foreign Affairs Dmytro Kuleba highlighted the importance of speeding up the EU’s plan to supply Ukraine with one million shells by March 2024 during a meeting with the EU Council of Foreign Ministers on November 13, but Politico reported on November 14 that German Defense Minister Boris Pistorius expressed doubt that the EU would be able to meet this target.[21]
Politico also reported that EU Foreign Affairs Representative Josep Borrell stated that the European defense industry is exporting about 40 percent of its current production to third countries and urged European countries to shift exports to Ukraine as “priority one.”[22] Borrell stated that the EU’s ability to supply Ukraine with one million shells “will depend on how quickly orders come to the industry and how quickly the industry reacts.”[23]
NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg reiterated on November 14 that NATO has put in place framework contracts worth €2.4 billion, including €1 billion worth of firm orders, and stated that NATO countries are increasing production in order to reach the target of one million shells by March 2024.[24] Politico reported that Estonian Defense Minister Hanno Pevkur also announced that Estonia offered five European companies a procurement offer for €280 million worth of 155-mm artillery ammunition.[25]
https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campai
gn-assessment-november-14-2023
All these billions don’t actually buy very many shells.
The German arms manufacturer Rheinmetall has recently announced the conclusion of a contract with an unnamed European customer for 155-mm L15 shells. In total, 10,000 155 mm artillery rounds were ordered and the value of the announced deal was about 33 million euros. This puts the cost of one 155 mm shell at around 3.3 thousand euros. The current market situation is very different from what it was just a couple of short years ago. In 2020-2021 one artillery shell of this caliber cost somewhere in the neighborhood of 2 thousand euros.
https://www.technology.org/2023/01/05/how-much-do-155-mm-artillery-rou
nds-cost-now-and-how-many-are-fired-in-ukraine/
The $402 million contract could buy as many as 800,000 155mm shells at $500 apiece, though George cautioned that shipping, packaging, and other services would likely drive the per-unit cost higher.
https://www.defenseone.com/threats/2023/07/us-paying-contractor-quietl
y-supply-bulgarian-155mm-shells-ukraine/388480/
I have seen how Ukrainians expend their artillery shells. At a cost of between $500 and €3,300 per shell, Ukrainian artillerymen need to actually hit something other than the ground every time they fire. May I suggest they take aim before firing? Or is that too much to expect from tired and fearful men? Pointing their weapons in the general direction of the Russians is not the same as aiming. If they don’t start aiming better, they will lose, which means all their fear and weariness was for no purpose. The Ukrainians should make the extra mental effort to not fight dumber than the Russians do.
The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly
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Wednesday, November 15, 2023 7:49 PM
Ukrainians have taken back half the land Russia took. And they for sure can shoot straight. As for using cluster bombs, they are using them on their own soil. And yes, Russia has used them in Ukraine. Along with other illegal munitions. Like thermobaric bomb (also called a vacuum or aerosol bomb - or fuel air explosive)
The Russians are getting their asses kicked.
T 
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Wednesday, November 15, 2023 8:26 PM
Quote:To be blunt about this, neither Ukrainians nor Russians are competent at anything other than dying for their country. There are a small number of exceptional people on any side who are doing most of the actual work of killing the enemy. As for the rest? All they usefully do is maintain equipment and carry ammo and food to the real warriors. How has the ratio of rounds per kill in war shifted over time and why? It's often reported that 300,000 rounds have been fired for each rebel killed in Afghanistan, though this includes training. This says that it took 100 bullets to inflict each casualty at Gettysburg, which would require 99.97% of shots in Afghanistan to be outside combat to have equal rounds per kill.
Originally posted by THG:
Ukrainians have taken back half the land Russia took. And they for sure can shoot straight. As for using cluster bombs, they are using them on their own soil. And yes, Russia has used them in Ukraine. Along with other illegal munitions. Like thermobaric bomb (also called a vacuum or aerosol bomb - or fuel air explosive)
T
Is the Gettysburg figure right? Is it representative of musket warfare in general? How do modern wars compare? If it takes many more rounds in modern warfare to kill one enemy, what is the chain of causality that caused the shift? Much more at https://www.reddit.com/r/WarCollege/comments/d5d237/how_has_the_ratio_
of_rounds_per_kill_in_war/
The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly
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Wednesday, November 15, 2023 8:55 PM
Quote:I imagined that you might get SOMETHING right in one of your posts, but this isn't the one.
Originally posted by THG:
Ukrainians have taken back half the land Russia took. And they for sure can shoot straight. As for using cluster bombs, they are using them on their own soil. And yes, Russia has used them in Ukraine. Along with other illegal munitions. Like thermobaric bomb (also called a vacuum or aerosol bomb - or fuel air explosive)
The Russians are getting their asses kicked.
T
A) Cluster rounds aren't universally banned. They are banned by 100 nations, but since there are about 200 nations across the globe... Signifincantly, cluster rounds aren't banned by the USA or Russia. https://www.npr.org/2023/09/05/1197578353/a-new-study-examines-the-tol
l-of-cluster-munitions. It is a war crime, however, to fire cluster munitions at civilian areas, which Military Summary Channel has documented Ukraine doing a few times in the past couple of months.
B) Thermobaric warheads aren't banned either. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermobaric_weapon Their use against civilian targets hasn't been legally tested, but is probably illegal
C) Russia hasn't used cluster munitions. There was an allegation that someone did (a village where people were apparentky killed by cluster munitions that used flechettes) and Ukraine, of course, blamed Russia. But Ukraine has a proven habit of blaming Russia for something that it did (like Ukraine's S300 that landed in Poland, immediately blamed on Russia https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/11/18/ukraine-missile-poland
-nato-russia/ )
D) Ukraine has not taken back 'half" the land that Rusia took. Look at a map, willya?
E) Russia is taking losses. This is war, after all. But Russia is not "getting its ass kicked" .
How you get so much wrong in one short post is astonishing. It's jam packed with errors.
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"It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal." - Henry Kissinger
Loving America is like loving an addicted spouse - SIGNYM
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Wednesday, November 15, 2023 9:24 PM
The USA can scrape Ukraine off and try to memory- hole it, but the EU has to live with Russia on its border AND with the political, financial, and economic mess it made for itself in trying to destroy Russia.
Consequently the pro- war faction (those that participated in the summit where Biden* urged them to join the "destroy Russia" campaign, and they climbed on board. That includes Scholz, Macron, BoJo, and Stoltenberg & Co, and probably Ursula van der Crazy and "Jungle Jim" Josep Borrell) have to have this succeed, no matter how irrational a plan they come up with.
Two ex- NATO heads (Rasmussen and an ex- admiral) have both recently witeen articles promoting the plan to include Ukraine in NATO NOW!! And the EU is talking about accession of Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia and NOW!!
-----------
"It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal." - Henry Kissinger
Loving America is like loving an addicted spouse - SIGNYM
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Wednesday, November 15, 2023 11:17 PM
Quote:I imagined that you might get SOMETHING right in one of your posts, but this isn't the one.
Originally posted by SIGNYM:Quote:
Originally posted by THG:
Ukrainians have taken back half the land Russia took. And they for sure can shoot straight. As for using cluster bombs, they are using them on their own soil. And yes, Russia has used them in Ukraine. Along with other illegal munitions. Like thermobaric bomb (also called a vacuum or aerosol bomb - or fuel air explosive)
The Russians are getting their asses kicked.
T
A) Cluster rounds aren't universally banned. They are banned by 100 nations, but since there are about 200 nations across the globe... Signifincantly, cluster rounds aren't banned by the USA or Russia. https://www.npr.org/2023/09/05/1197578353/a-new-study-examines-the-tol
l-of-cluster-munitions. It is a war crime, however, to fire cluster munitions at civilian areas, which Military Summary Channel has documented Ukraine doing a few times in the past couple of months.
B) Thermobaric warheads aren't banned either. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermobaric_weapon Their use against civilian targets hasn't been legally tested, but is probably illegal
C) Russia hasn't used cluster munitions. There was an allegation that someone did (a village where people were apparentky killed by cluster munitions that used flechettes) and Ukraine, of course, blamed Russia. But Ukraine has a proven habit of blaming Russia for something that it did (like Ukraine's S300 that landed in Poland, immediately blamed on Russia https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/11/18/ukraine-missile-poland
-nato-russia/ )
D) Ukraine has not taken back 'half" the land that Rusia took. Look at a map, willya?
E) Russia is taking losses. This is war, after all. But Russia is not "getting its ass kicked" .
How you get so much wrong in one short post is astonishing. It's jam packed with errors.
Ukrainians tied to Biden probe face treason charge
Three Ukrainians who aided the Donald Trump campaign's efforts to discredit the Biden family have been charged with treason.
The 2019 drive was led by former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani, who was Mr Trump's personal lawyer at the time.
It centred on unproven allegations that Joe Biden had corrupt dealings with Ukraine as vice-president.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ukrainians-tied-to-biden-probe-fa
ce-treason-charge/ar-AA1jXZrK?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=d53b6c200da4428f8c0c229982696999&ei=54
And again claims of collusion with Russia are shown to be true. Go figure, aye comrade signym.
T
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Thursday, November 16, 2023 2:48 AM
The Zelenskiy regime banned opposition parties, banned the Russian Orthodox Church (and stole their assets), jailed a critic for "treason", is pilfering hundreds of thousands of dollars from military and monetary aid, and is dragooning men off the streets.
So, you take the word of a lying, corrupt, undemocratic regime (Zelenskiy) for anything?
-----------
"It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal." - Henry Kissinger
Loving America is like loving an addicted spouse - SIGNYM
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Thursday, November 16, 2023 2:52 AM
Quote:
HOW THE United States and Its NATO Allies Sabotaged Peace Between Russia and Ukraine
14 November 2023 by Larry Johnson
We now know that the United States played the primary role in sabotaging the March 29, 2022 tentative peace agreement between Russia and Ukraine thanks to the recently published article by Hajo Funke and Harald Kujat, HOW THE CHANCE WAS LOST FOR A PEACE SETTLEMENT OF THE UKRAINE WAR — AND THE WEST WANTED TO CONTINUE THE WAR INSTEAD. The United States persuaded its NATO allies that pursuing the war against Russia, using Ukraine as a proxy, offered a legitimate opportunity to destroy Russia. You want a definition of evil? This is it. Instead of helping end the war between Russia and Ukraine, the United States and its NATO puppets condemned hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian soldiers to death in a war with Russia they could not win.
In the course of strong arming Ukraine’s Zelensky into rejecting the peace agreement, the West prepared and launched a propaganda campaign that claimed that Ukrainian military forces defeated the Russian forces and compelled them to retreat. It was a lie. As you will read in the timeline below, Putin ordered the withdrawal of Russian forces starting on April 1, 2022 as a good faith gesture about Russia’s seriousness in complying with the 29 March Istanbul Agreement.
So now we know what happened to the cease fire agreement between Ukraine and Russia: Same thing that happened to the Grain Deal and Minsk I and Minsk 2
-----------
"It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal." - Henry Kissinger
Loving America is like loving an addicted spouse - SIGNYM
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Thursday, November 16, 2023 3:18 AM
Quote:Your story comes from https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2023/11/how-united-states-its-nato-al
Originally posted by SIGNYM:Quote:
HOW THE United States and Its NATO Allies Sabotaged Peace Between Russia and Ukraine
14 November 2023 by Larry Johnson
We now know that the United States played the primary role in sabotaging the March 29, 2022 tentative peace agreement between Russia and Ukraine thanks to the recently published article by Hajo Funke and Harald Kujat, HOW THE CHANCE WAS LOST FOR A PEACE SETTLEMENT OF THE UKRAINE WAR — AND THE WEST WANTED TO CONTINUE THE WAR INSTEAD. The United States persuaded its NATO allies that pursuing the war against Russia, using Ukraine as a proxy, offered a legitimate opportunity to destroy Russia. You want a definition of evil? This is it. Instead of helping end the war between Russia and Ukraine, the United States and its NATO puppets condemned hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian soldiers to death in a war with Russia they could not win.
In the course of strong arming Ukraine’s Zelensky into rejecting the peace agreement, the West prepared and launched a propaganda campaign that claimed that Ukrainian military forces defeated the Russian forces and compelled them to retreat. It was a lie. As you will read in the timeline below, Putin ordered the withdrawal of Russian forces starting on April 1, 2022 as a good faith gesture about Russia’s seriousness in complying with the 29 March Istanbul Agreement.
So now we know what happened to the cease fire agreement between Ukraine and Russia: Same thing that happened to the Grain Deal and Minsk I and Minsk 2
lies-sabotaged-peace/
What is your website known for? The Gateway Pundit (TGP) is an American far-right[2] fake news website.[1] The website is known for publishing falsehoods, hoaxes, and conspiracy theories.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gateway_Pundit
Signym's fake stories are well-know at this website which keeps track of Russian lies:
https://www.international.gc.ca/world-monde/issues_development-enjeux_
developpement/response_conflict-reponse_conflits/crisis-crises/ukraine-fact-fait.aspx
The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly
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Thursday, November 16, 2023 3:25 AM
Quote:
March 15-19, 2022 — Only a month after the outbreak of the war, Ukraine and Russia agreed on the broad outlines of a peace settlement. Ukraine promised not to join NATO and not to allow military bases of foreign powers on its territory, while Russia promised in return to recognize Ukraine’s territorial integrity and to withdraw all Russian occupation troops. Special arrangements were made for the Donbas and Crimea.”
March 24, 2022 — NATO decided at a special summit on March 24, 2022, not to support these peace negotiations.
March 27, 2022 — Zelensky defended the results of the Ukrainian-Russian peace negotiations in public before Russian journalists
March 28, 2022 — Putin, as a sign of goodwill and in support of the peace negotiations, declared readiness to withdraw troops from the Kharkov area and the Kiev area
29 March, 2002 — Turkiye’s President Erdogan hosted a Ukrainian-Russian peace conference in Istanbul and an armistice agreement was approved in principle.
April 1, 2022 — Putin orders Russian troops to initiate withdrawal from Kiev and Kharkiv in show of good faith in accordance with the armistice agreed to in Istanbul.
April 5, 2022 — NATO was firm in its position that continuing the war is preferred to a cease-fire and negotiated settlement: “For some in NATO, it’s better for Ukrainians to keep fighting and dying than to achieve a peace that comes too soon or at too high a price for Kiev and the rest of Europe.”
April 6, 2022 — Russia completes withdrawal from Kiev suburbs and Kharkiv.
April 9, 2022 — Boris Johnson arrived unannounced in Kiev and told the Ukrainian president that the West was not ready to end the war.
April 25, 2022 — U.S. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin said the U.S. wants to use the opportunity to permanently weaken Russia militarily and economically in the wake of the Ukraine war.
April 26, 2022 — Meeting with defense ministers from NATO members and other countries convened by Austin in Ramstein, Rhineland-Palatinate/ Germany, the Pentagon chief declared the military victory of Ukraine as a strategic goal.
April 28, 2022 — According to Britain’s Guardian, PM Johnson “instructed” Ukrainian President Zelensky “not to make any concessions to Putin.”
Nice try. NOT the Gateway Pundit
From https://sonar21.com/how-the-chance-was-lost-for-a-peace-settlement-of-
the-ukraine-war/
Summary of
Michael von der Schulenburg, Hajo Funke, Harald Kujat – Peace For Ukraine
https://braveneweurope.com/michael-von-der-schulenburg-hajo-funke-hara
ld-kujat-peace-for-ukraine
Michael von der Schulenburg is a former UN Assistant Secretary-General, who worked for over 34 years for the United Nations, and shortly for the OSCE, in many countries in war or internal armed conflicts often involving fragile governments and armed non-state actors
Hajo Funke is Professor Emeritus for political sciences of the Otto-Suhr-Institute/ Freie University Berlin
General (ret.) Harald Kujat was the highest ranging German officer of the Bundeswehr and at NATO
----------
"It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal." - Henry Kissinger
Loving America is like loving an addicted spouse - SIGNYM
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