As per Cartoon's request - continued religous debate thread

POSTED BY: Amiton
UPDATED: Thursday, October 19, 2023 18:55
VIEWED: 3098
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AMITON

Friday, March 17, 2006 7:37 PM

Cartoon, I don't mind long educational/informative posts, but just so you know, they're a bear to snag quotes from =p (Yeah, I suspect mine are probably just as irritating to quote =p). Anyway...

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:
Yes. Unfortunately, man has tried (and often succeeded) in messing it up (the understanding of the scriptures).

If we would only just get back to the basics, we'd do fine. Everything I've read in heremeneutics is just common sense. We shouldn't have to read about "how to read the Bible".

That's exactly what I mean, though. We *do* need to read about "how to read the bible." There are a few issues on top of that, too. For example, many, if not most, people who are raised in Christian, Jewish, and Islamic households are being told what is in their respective bibles before they can read. I will happily grant that they are told these things by people that *can* read, and even have seminary training (or its equivilent) and lots of experience in the topic.

Add to that, the (what I will assert as) fact that at least most Christians (as opposed to other religions I know significantly less about) have never read the bible for themselves. I'd venture to say that most of them are lucky if they read their assignment for Sunday School, much less any particular book of the Bible.

Even after reading it, a lot of the context is pretty messed up. The stories are from an entirely different culture and period in history. The language has changed. The environment is changed. We don't know what is literal and what is figurative, but it's pretty universal that there is some of each. My point is, 2000 years after Christ (again, just as the singular example I'm most familiar with...the Jews have it even worse), we don't have a definitive answer to what the Bible is saying.

That problem is compounded by the institution that created the Bible. A group of men with an agenda, even if it was the right one, decided what was going to make up the Bible over 400 years after Christ's death. There were a *lot* of different teachings to pick from. The church was already about as fragmented as it is today, and a lot of believers had to bring their beliefs in line with the new regime. Then the good book got jacked up a lot more by the Roman Catholics. Fortunately we had scholars that were willing to accept a label as a heretic in order to do what they could in a search for truth. But what about books like those in the Apocrypha? What about the Gospels of Thomas and Mary? What about the other books that were rejected as non-devine, or downright heretical? Those were decisions made by men, and we can't even agree about what they meant. That puts the fear of hell into me.

Quote:
Well, Strobel's whole approach was from his atheistic viewpoint. It was his "search" that turned him around. I found it fascinating from that standpoint alone.

The book was actually a gift to me from a church deacon who knew that I was struggling to find my way back to belief. It came *highly* recommended, and the concept seemed really exciting to me, too.

Quote:
I didn't have any problems with his style and approach, myself. What about it bothered you? (Just curious)(You can even tell me privately, if you don't want to go into it here)

Privately?? No way, this is an open discussion =p Anyway, Strobel really came off as a cheerleader and the language that he used sounded like he was trying to play sleight of hand with his choice of words. Also, knowing that he was coming from the atheism perspective, I *really* hoped that he would pull out some compelling discussion supporting conversion. If I may be blunt for a moment, that book wasn't written to convert a damn person. Lee Strobel wrote that book to help Christians that were struggling with their faith answer the basic questions they have so they can get back on the straight and narrow. If that book was the sole source for converting anyone who had deep-seated intellectual concerns for bec

CHRISISALL

Saturday, March 18, 2006 2:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Amiton:

The exclusion thing just seems so far off of everything that I want (yes, *I* want) the creator that I know to be. Then again, so do a lot of things that were brought up in these threads that almost made me enter the discussion earlier...

I don't see God as one to be excludin' people; that'd be rude.

ChrisisallJayne-like

CARTOON

Saturday, March 18, 2006 3:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Amiton:
For example, many, if not most, people who are raised in Christian, Jewish, and Islamic households are being told what is in their respective bibles before they can read. I will happily grant that they are told these things by people that *can* read, and even have seminary training (or its equivilent) and lots of experience in the topic.

Yes. The worse thing about contempory, non-bible-reading society is that it causes all of us start off with a whole lot of misconceptions. We know what we're taught at home or church (if applicable) -- a lot of times by well-meaning people who know nothing at all about the bible. We see and hear things in newspapers, magazines, radio and television which (for the most part) is in total contradiction to the true message of scriptures.

That's a lot of misconceptions to overcome -- misconceptions with which we are constantly bombarded.

I grew up in a home where the bible was read (but neither of my parents understood it, so both were innocently passing their misconceptions on to me). I also attended churches where it was taught, but often in blatant contradiction to what it actually said.

It had been so drilled into me, that by the time I actually started reading it seriously, myself, that it made even less sense to me, and I was totally confused --resisting the truth (which is plainly portrayed throughout the scriptures for anyone who bothered to actually study them for themselves -- as a whole, and not piecemeal) because it was not what I had been taught.

Quote:
Originally posted by Amiton:
Even after reading it, a lot of the context is pretty messed up.

Yes, if taken piecemeal. That's why it has to be read as a whole. That's not easy to do. Firstly, where do I start? What order? I can't answer those.

I do know, though, that of all the times I've read through the scriptures, the time I got the most out of it was when I read it completely through in three months. Mostly, because it's fresh, and you retain it better. When you read something in the middle that was mentioned at the beginning, you remember hearing about it previously, because you'd only just read that previous passage a few weeks earlier.

Granted, reading it all the way through over a short time span is not easy to do, and it takes a huge committment. Also, when reading large portions at once, there's the danger of skimming (particularly in portions where the scripture may be dealing with a subject which is of little or no interest to you). One thing you don't want to do is read it so that you're missing what it's saying. It's better to read two sentences a day and understand them, than read it all through in one sitting. That being said, each individual has to find a pace which is comfortable for them to understand what they're reading, while retaining what they've read when they come across another passage on it later on.

A bible with good study notes will help a lot, too, as passages are cross-referenced. Although I've found no bible whose study notes I fully agreed with, the best I've read to date is the "New Geneva Study Bible". It uses a good translation, the notes are conservative, and (for the most part) the cross-references very helpful.

As I've said previously, though, if you really want to study it you need a knowledge of Hebrew & Greek (which I'm lacking), or interlinears in both languages (Hebrew ones are very expensive) -- plus a good lexicon and concordance to look up the words. It could be very expensive and time consuming. Fortunately, I bought my interlinears more than a decade ago when I actually had money. (I could never afford them now.)

Quote:
Originally posted by Amiton:
We don't know what is literal and what is figurative, but it's pretty universal that there is some of each. My point is, 2000 years after Christ (snip) we don't have a definitive answer to what the Bible is saying.

Yes. A brief study in hermeneutics will help a lot with the former. Most of

MIRAGE

Saturday, March 18, 2006 1:33 PM

One thing I don't understand is where other religions fit in. If you're not a christian does that mean you automatically go to Hell?

CARTOON

Saturday, March 18, 2006 2:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mirage:
One thing I don't understand is where other religions fit in. If you're not a christian does that mean you automatically go to Hell?

This is a tough question, and the answers given in the Bible aren't very politically correct.

Jesus did emphatically state that He was the only way to the Father -- a tenant repeated throughout the scripture. But, (as I've said before) no one should take my word for this (or anyone else's -- either endorsing this belief, or contradicting it), but read the Bible for yourself (in context) to see if this is true.

But as I mentioned above, Paul also elaborated on the accountability of mankind in Romans, where he related how all people throughout time have had witness of God through His creation, but still have refused to glorify Him. (see Romans 1:18-32) There are many other passages, too, which I could site when I have more time (I can't spend much time in here today -- if you're interested, let me know, and I'll try to get them up by Monday.)

Because Jesus said so, and because I believe that Jesus is God -- then He is indeed the only way to God -- and that His sacfrice on the cross was the only thing that would pay for our sins.

However, Job is a perfect example of a man who was (more likely than not) redeemed -- yet Job lived before Jesus, (and as far as we know) even before God's covenant with Abraham*. (*I've already briefly explained in a previous post about how the Jews of the Old Covenant who looked forward to the Messiah's redemption were also covered by the blood of Jesus.)

So, how could Job be redeemed if Jesus's sacrifice was the only way, and he supposedly had no knowledge or prophesy at that time to promise his redemption?

I believe Job was saved because (as we all must) he recognized his sinfulness and inability to please God in his own merits, and just had faith that God would somehow (at some point in the future) provide a means to blot out his transgressions.

MIRAGE

Saturday, March 18, 2006 4:47 PM

"But as I mentioned above, Paul also elaborated on the accountability of mankind in Romans, where he related how all people throughout time have had witness of God through His creation, but still have refused to glorify Him. (see Romans 1:18-32) There are many other passages, too, which I could site when I have more time (I can't spend much time in here today -- if you're interested, let me know, and I'll try to get them up by Monday.)"
Yeah I'd be interested in that.

You seem too say the Bible and Christ teachings say that non Christians can't be saved, but it comes across to me that you don't necessarily think that, is that right?

My own beliefs are somewhat personal, I believe in God, just not necessarily Christianity or any other organised religion. I also personally believe that God doesn't mind whether you worship or how you do it, as long as you live a good life. Maybe because that’s how I feel about it, maybe I'm anthropomorphising God too much in my own image, what do you think?

It's always good to get another POV on the subject.

CARTOON

Saturday, March 18, 2006 4:51 PM

Hi, Mirage. I'll get back to you when I have more time. This weekend is a bit hectic, but I will get back to you. Thanks.

CARTOON

Sunday, March 19, 2006 1:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mirage:
Yeah I'd be interested in that.

Okay. This may be somewhat lengthier than either of us would've liked, but it's the best I can do under the time (and knowledge) constraints I'm working with...

The passage from Romans (to which I’d previously alluded) states how mankind is guilty and without excuse before God “because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.” (To see the whole passage in a more complete context, see Romans 1:18-32.

The Bible also clearly teaches (in a multitude of places) that all men are lost and need to be saved. Two prominent passages which refer to this are Isaiah 64:5-7 and Romans 3:10-18 (the latter which incorporates a quote from the Psalms) -- as well as nearly all of the books of the prophets, which contain multiple condemnations on mankind for its sinful rebellion. Romans 3:23 states that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

The entire 59th chapter of Isaiah vividly portrays how mankind has estranged itself from its Creator, then demonstrates how it displeased the Lord that there was no justice with mankind, nor a suitable intercessor for mankind, so that the Lord, Himself had to intercede if we were to be saved at all.

Establishing that all mankind is guilty of sin, the Bible then demonstrates that the wages (penalty) of sin is “death” (Romans 6:23) -- the Lord said as much in the garden -- that if mankind sinned, they would “die” (and be both physically and spiritually separated from Him, and subject to His wrath).

The Bible also clearly teaches throughout that mankind cannot save himself, and that God alone is the Savior. Isaiah is full of passages on the glorious saving nature of God (and how false gods are useless and unable to save man). Isaiah 45:18-22 is one of many which speak of God’s salvation (and the whole 46th chapter is only one of many which deals with false gods, and the Lord’s contempt for them).

Romans 3:10 - “Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”

As I’ve pointed out elsewhere, mankind cannot be saved by “being good” or following God’s law. The law is merely a mirror to show us that we need cleansing, but not the tool of cleansing. James also reiterates this (in the second chapter of the book which bears his name) where he says “For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all”. (see also Acts 13:39-39)

Fortunately, the Lord established a covenant with Israel that He would forgive the inquity of those who came to Him in repentance. Initially, that repentance was demonstrated through the annual sacrifices which Israel was required to make, thereby demonstrating their acknowledgement of their “need” for salvation.

But, as the NT points out, these sacrifices were merely shadows of the fulfillment of God’s promise to provide a Lamb that would take away the sins of those who believed on Him. Jeremiah 31:31-34 speaks of the “New Covenant” the Lord would establish with Israel, which would fulfill the promises of redemption only hinted at through their previous animal sacrifices, and pointing to the Lamb of God (the Messiah), who would come and pay the price of sin (total obedience to the whole law) and be a willing substitute for those who would, in faith, receive that gift.

The Old Testament has many prophesies which point to the Messiah, but some of the most obvious (and also most-quoted throughout the NT) can be found in Isaiah -- specifically 11:1-5, and the four “Servant” prophesies from 42:1-9; 49:1-7; 50:4-11; and 52:13-53:12 (also Jeremiah 33:15-16). A f

JAYNEZTOWN

Thursday, October 19, 2023 6:55 PM

A never ending war cycle

Palestine Arab types, vs Jew Zionists and other fight Hamas and Gaza and West bank and Israeli military and expanding Jews, another massacre an attack on Jewish and other national groups during a concert and kidnappings
Israeli reponding, perhaps an overkill and far superior technology for war

The softer Jihad invasion of propaganda and pushing Sharia Laws, the Civilization’s Fifth Columnists, Open Borders and The True Face of Islam Manifests in the West

Why They Yell "Allah Akbar" When They Kill and Rape
https://jamieglazov.com/2023/10/17/glazov-gang-why-hamas-shouts-allahu
-akbar/

Harvard students standing in solidarity with Hamas. These creatures will soon infiltrate American business and government. Hamas and their minions in brain-addled American liberal institutions hate Jews, whites, and want them dead. The American political left has gone insane
https://twitter.com/RealJamesWoods/status/1714649651184587015

Minnesota attorney general Keith Ellison’s chief of staff promotes pro-Hamas rally in Minneapolis
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2023/10/minnesota-attorney-general-keith-el
lisons-chief-of-staff-promotes-pro-hamas-rally-in-minneapolis

ONE MILLION Palestinian refugees – what could possibly go wrong?
https://barenakedislam.com/2023/10/18/one-million-palestinian-refugees
-what-could-possibly-go-wrong/

How CAIR and Western Islamists Responded to Mass Murder in the Name of Their Jihad islamo Religion
https://islamism.news/uncategorized/western-islamists-respond-to-hamas
-attack-on-israel/

What the Palestinian terrorists did to the Israeli families before they executed them in their own homes.
https://twitter.com/MarinaMedvin/status/1714847625130762425

Dearborn: Muslim doctor celebrates Hamas massacre with ‘Oh what a beautiful day’
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2023/10/dearborn-muslim-doctor-celebrates-h
amas-massacre-with-oh-what-a-beautiful-day

Did elected official RashidaTlaib incite a pro-Hamas crowd to take over the Capitol complex?
This event interfered with legislative business and work.
https://twitter.com/RepAndyBiggsAZ/status/1714765476310466583
Should be a clear insurrection according to the J6 Committee

Old School Leftie Global Hippie Social Liberals Shocked by Young Leftists Cheering Hamas
https://time.com/6323730/hamas-attack-left-response/

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