Angel in love with Cordy or with buffy?

POSTED BY: hawaiiansgirl
UPDATED: Tuesday, February 8, 2005 13:55
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GROUNDED

Wednesday, January 12, 2005 1:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by StarPilotGrainger:
I don't think it was a retcon. I think it was a fair point that somebody finally realized a 'moment of perfect happiness' != sex... however, that being said, it was stupidly irresponsible to go from there to 'so, go have some sex!' I mean, yeah, it _probably_ won't lead to him losing his soul, but do you really want to take that chance?

It does make sense, I know, but considering they'd hammered the implications of the curse through so many times before it seemed a bit of a quick reversal. The point was that, even if there was a chance nothing would happen, Angel wasn't supposed to take the risk since the consequences could be so dire.

IDEFIX

Wednesday, January 12, 2005 1:30 PM

I think it's pretty consistent. if you really fall in love woth the wrong person and you understand that it's wrong and can't work and you go away to not be tempted every day to make it easier for both of you then I think it's consistent that you'd be alone for a while and when you get too lonely you try to go out with old friends or let's say people that are there. being alone forever is pretty dull but there's just no getting over true love that's reciprocated and always there even years later. even if you know that it just happens to be wrong and impossible to live.

that said I believe he always loved Buffy and will probably always love her but it doesn't work with them because he's totaly happy with her and that's his curse. he felf responsible for Darla. he liked Cordy, respected her, felt attracted to her. he wanted to date again just for the fun of it with Nina. it always put a smile on his face when he thought about going out with Nina and that was worth it I think. she needed him to understand her problem and he needed her for some normal guy/girl fun.

so I didn't think it odd or out of character or whatever what he said to Buffy at the end of S7.

Idefix

JEWEL

Wednesday, January 12, 2005 1:49 PM

To me, the whole assumption that Angel lost his soul soley because of sex seemed kind of silly. I got the "true happiness" part of him having sex with Buffy, and I understand why that particular event caused Angel to lose his soul. But it didn't make sense to me to always equate sex with happiness.

Wesley, since season 1 of Angel (in the episode "Eternity"), has said that sex != happiness, true or otherwise. He recognised that "true happiness" was a rare thing and the liklihood that Angel would experience it with just anyone was pretty much non existant.

To me, it's good that Angel recognised this, although it took him long enough. I never thought he should be celibate forever.

Now that said, I don't think he was ever really in love with Cordelia. They worked closely together for a long time and I know he cared about her and it even makes sense that the two of them would mistake their feelings for one another for love, but I don't think it was. They were best friends.

And Nina? I never bought that one. That whole relationship seemed contrived.

I think Angel will ultimately always be in love with Buffy. But he can't have her, so he should pursue other relationships.

AMYEL

Wednesday, January 12, 2005 2:24 PM

I NEVER thought the Buffy/Angel relationship was so "OMG true love!!!!!!" like is was made out to be. They couldn't get along. They were madly in love with each other, and they believed that it was all "true love forever" but they didn't *know* each other. The funniest bit for me was when Angel bought Buffy Portuguese sonnets for her birthday. Yeah, she'd love that...

They kept breaking each others' hearts, then getting back together. They were a roller coaster. That's not real true love-- it's high school drama. Even if Angel could find away to remove his curse, get back with Buffy, and never lose his soul again, they wouldn't be able to last.

High school-era Buffy and Angel would have never lasted anyways even if he didn't lose his soul. I think she tried to put Angel's past in the back of her mind, but that stuff keeps coming up. If you're 250 years old-- you have emotional baggage. Can't get rid of that.

Buffy later became much darker and understood inner darkness and she probably can empathize with Angel a lot more, but now they're much different people. I'm sure they'll always be drawn to each other, but even if they could be together without consequences it would never be a "forever love".

Plus, I always thought part of Angel's connection to Buffy was some leftover Darla issues. Buffy and Darla had always been played off of each other as similiar opposites. Remember that Darla was the very first character shown on Buffy. Darla played the helpless "oh what's the sound, I'm so scared!" little blonde, then she killed the crap out of that guy. They play the same scenario with Buffy herself. Joss set the both of them up as playing against expectations.

Buffy is HUGELY influential to Angel, but it can't compare to Darla. Darla was his murderer, his mother figure, his teacher, his lover, and the mother of his child. 200+ years of history really leaves a mark, whether or not the influence was a postitive thing.

And Nina... well... obviously Angel is into small blondes. That's all that relationship was about.

Here's a bit of a transcript that pretty much sums up my entire opinion of Angel, Darla, and Buffy:

Angel: "Not a vampire at all, really. I mean, not any more. They brought her back as a human."
Magev: "This Darla girl - why'd they do that?"
Angel: "I don't know. But seeing her again... it's just..."
Magev: "It started the inner struggle."
Angel: "Yeah."
Magev: "She's not even the one that did this to you."
Angel: "No. It-it's still her, it's still Darla. It's - kinda hard to explain."
Magev: "What hard? You're obsessed."
Angel: "I guess I am, a little, yeah."
Magev: "You blame her."
Angel: "I suppose I do."
Magev: "You want to punish her."
Angel: "A bit..."
Magev: "At the same time you want to thank her."
Angel: "Thank her?"
Magev: "For the gift she's given you."
Angel: "Gift?"
Magev: "You're deeply ambivalent."
Angel: "Yeah, well, I am and I'm not."
Magev: "You need to get over her. - Okay, what does she look like?"
Angel: "She's beautiful. - Small, blonde..."
Magev: "Right. So here's what you do. You go out and find yourself some small, blonde thing. You bed her, you love her, you treat her like crap, you break her heart. You and your inner demon will thank me, I promise."
Angel: "Uhm..."

GWEK

Wednesday, January 12, 2005 3:09 PM

I agree that Buffy (as well as Nina, the blonde cop from early "Angel", and probably another one or two I can't think of) all come from the Darla wellspring. It can get deeper, but, basically, they're all cute blondes who aren't what they at first appear to be.

All the later ones, Buffy included, are his effort to recapture his first, lost love. I think in his mind, he makes Buffy his "true" love because she's sort of a less dysfunctional version of Darla (that's saying a LOT).

Cordelia, regardless of what you think of the relationship, is the one that breaks the mold. Not only is she not his normal physical type, but, unlike the others, by the time he falls for her, he knows exactly who she has become, so she doesn't fall into the "little girl with surprise big powers" mold most of the others do (well, yeah, I guess she does, but not as clearly).

I think Angel and Cordelia is Mulder and Scully: Whereas in most other cases, there's an instant spark, A&C is about two people who spend a lot of time together, have a lot in common, and eventually DEVELOP chemistry because of that. It's basically an office crush.

Doesn't make it any less legitimate (hey, happens all the world over in offices and restaurants and other workplaces everywhere), bit it makes it totally different than the others.

EMBERS

Wednesday, January 12, 2005 3:48 PM

I always felt that Joss & company did everything they could to foreshadow Angel/Cordy...
they were shown becoming closer,
being jealous of one another;
working together more like an old married couple.
They cared about each other, needed each other,
and for most people on the planet that is love.

I think the reason that fans didn't get it is because
most fans were so locked into the High School passion of Buffy & Angel
being true lurve.

With Mulder & Scully you didn't have any prior commitments hiding the attraction that was in front of you.

That said, I'll really get people mad by saying the writers can only do so much,
I don't think that CC or DB were subtle enough actors to show that they were pining for one another.
Not the way that AD could show Wesley pining for Fred.

RHYMEPHILE

Wednesday, January 12, 2005 4:26 PM

jewel said:

Quote:
To me, the whole assumption that Angel lost his soul soley because of sex seemed kind of silly. I got the "true happiness" part of him having sex with Buffy, and I understand why that particular event caused Angel to lose his soul. But it didn't make sense to me to always equate sex with happiness.

I think it was always the emotional part of having sex with Buffy that caused him to lose his soul, not only the act itself.

That being said, if true happiness equals an emotional reaction rather than something physical, then why didn't we get Angelus when Connor was born? Wouldn't that be a moment of pure happiness? The way Angel mooned over that baby made me always expect he would experience that happy moment and eat Connor, which, heh, cool.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"My office! Burgled! Plundered! Purloined! Ha ha ha...loins."

-- Phil Sebben, Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law

JEWEL

Wednesday, January 12, 2005 4:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RhymePhile:

I think it was always the emotional part of having sex with Buffy that caused him to lose his soul, not only the act itself.

Exactly!

Quote:

That being said, if true happiness equals an emotional reaction rather than something physical, then why didn't we get Angelus when Connor was born? Wouldn't that be a moment of pure happiness? The way Angel mooned over that baby made me always expect he would experience that happy moment and eat Connor, which, heh, cool.

I wondered about that, myself. I think the only thing keeping him from losing his soul there is that he could not feel content at all. Too much was going on with everyone trying to steal or kill the baby.

STILLSHINY

Wednesday, January 12, 2005 6:04 PM

I for one, wanted to see the Angel / Cordy connection happen. Her getting all glowy & powerful was just crap to me. I wanted to see that in their own ways Cordy & Angel had achieved a place of redemption. The scene of Angel & Cordy laying on the bed with "baby" Connor. Now that was a scene of "love".

All the stupid pupply love / lust with Buffy was so adolescent. I saw the beginnings of a real relationship with Cordy.

All of Angel's trouble began because of Liam "chasin after the hotties wenching & all that rot" What was the difference with Buffy?

I think in Cordy Angel for a true love & joy that was lasting. Not "perfect moment" Moments don't last. Love does.

Anyway just my thoughts. Yep I loved Cordy, & I hated a goodly portion of the 4th season....except for Faith.......F-A-I-T-H.

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DIRTYBROWNCOAT

Saturday, January 15, 2005 11:33 PM

You guys make some good points about all of it leading back to Darla, but I don't think it's him trying to recapture his love. They've stated a ton of times over the course of his own series that Angel was involved with Darla, but he never *loved* her the way, for example, Spike loved Drusilla in season 2 of BtVS.

And you guys make good points about Connor's birth, but like somebody else said (sorry, I was just skimming the posts and I forgot to quote :) ), there was all kinds of crap going on at that point, like Holtz hunting them down, bunches of people out to kill the baby before it was even born, and Caritas had just been EXPLODED (which is an awesome scene). By the time they kind of took care of all of that, Connor was kidnapped to Quar'toth, so he was all sad and torture-y again.

Simon: You...you came for us.
Mal: You're on my crew.
Simon: Right. I guess I just didn't...you don't even like me.
Mal: You're on my crew. Why we still talking about this?
-Safe

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