Firefly Wars , battle of Serenity - What Period is it like ?

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GWEK

Monday, January 10, 2005 2:52 PM

The era "Firefly" is set in is clearly and obviously modeled after the Civil War. Whedon has stated in multiple places that it evokes the Civil War (and that the Reapers evoke the Indians... or at least the perception of the Indians at that time). Anyone who's ever seen a Western or managed to stay awake during American history class shouldn't need to ask about this.

While there are echoes of other eras, it makes me very sad for the American education system that there are folks who might not realize this.

Sorry if that's a little harsh, but that's my opinion.

Oh, by the way, one message mentioned the war was an effort to create an Alliance that had not previously existed. I don't think this is true, is it? I thought the Alliance existed and was becoming increasingly oppressive and unwilling to respond to the "little people" (Whedon's way of making the "North" the bad guys this time around).

BROWNCOAT1

Monday, January 10, 2005 4:03 PM

Joss has mentioned that he was influenced by Michael Sharra's The Killer Angels, a great novel about the Battle of Gettysburg.

Civil War really doesn't apply by the way as by definition a civil war is two or more factions of the same country fighting for control of the same government. This of course is not the case in the War for Southern Independence as the South was attempting to break away from the Union.

The comparisons between the Battle of Serenity Valley and the Battle of Gettysburg are few, but they are there:

- one faction seeking independence, the other an oppressive government not willing to let go of the citizens who want to be free.

- this particular battle is pivotal, and the "high water mark" of the losing faction.

- the fighting is brutal for both sides.

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Meet Up:
http://firefly.meetup.com/9/boards/

HARDWARE

Monday, January 10, 2005 5:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tiger:
The war in the Firefly verse is definitely most similar to the American civil war, with two important differences:

1. It doesn't appear that slavery is unique to one side or the other in the conflict, nor that it had anything to do with the war.

2. In Firefly, the purpose of the war was to forcibly create an Alliance that didn't exist before, whereas the purpose of the ACW was to forcibly preserve a union that already existed.

I am not trying to step on toes or start a debate here, but after reading this I needed to chime in as a military historian.

The Confederate states seceded over an issue of state's rights versus Federal rights. Thus the American Civil War was fought to enforce Federal supremacy and preserve the union. Shelby Foote and Ken Burns both quote contemporary accounts that show the common useage in the vernacular North and South as "the United States are" prior to the war and "the United States is" after the war. This illustrates the perception that prior to the war people perceived their country as Virginia, New York, etc. and their country belonged to a coallition of other countries.

The documentable fact is that Lincoln turned the war into a war about slavery to generate renewed interest in prosecuting and driving the Confederate states back into the union. In reality turning the war into a war over slavery caused draft riots and caused desertions in the Union army. Sad as it is to say, Northerners were all for fighting to preserve the union, right or wrong, but they cared not a damn to fight for the freedom of slaves.

Now, since we know the Independents were fighting to keep from being forced into the Alliance I have to say it looks the motivations resemble the American Civil War. As for how it was fought, looks more like World War 2 or possibly Korea to me, based on the brief battle scenes in Serenity and The Message.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

TIGER

Monday, January 10, 2005 6:13 PM

Quote:

I am not trying to step on toes or start a debate here, but after reading this I needed to chime in as a military historian.

I'm not sure if you thought you would be disagreeing with me, but you're not. The civil war was fought to preserve the union, but an important reason the southern states wanted to secede was slavery (although it wasn't the only reason by far).

My comparison with the war in Firelfy was meant to demonstrate that as far as we know, slavery exists in the verse, but there's no indication that it had any part to play in the war.

EMBERS

Monday, January 10, 2005 6:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:
The era "Firefly" is set in is clearly and obviously modeled after the Civil War.

it makes me very sad for the American education system that there are folks who might not realize this.

actually I think that you guys are all getting yourselves (and Joss) very locked into one very small box when it fact he has tried to keep the imagery more universal than that.

personally I thought that the 'foxhole' story (about the apples) was much more evocative of WWI
when troops from either side were stuck in foxholes near one another for months on end.

I feel that Joss is enough of an artist to create a more inclusive and interesting vision than just a parallel to the history of one nation…
It isn’t like he doesn’t know that his show will be watched world wide.

TIGER

Monday, January 10, 2005 6:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:
Oh, by the way, one message mentioned the war was an effort to create an Alliance that had not previously existed. I don't think this is true, is it?

When they aired on television, Mal's monologue before the episodes says "The central planets, them that formed the alliance, waged war to bring everyone under their rule..." That's a good indication to me they forcibly annexed the other worlds in the verse that were previously independent.

I haven't seen anything that leads me to believe the alliance was, at one time, a voluntary membership that became oppressive over time, as was the case with the union in the american civil war/war of northern aggression/war for southern independence.

TIGER

Monday, January 10, 2005 6:50 PM

Quote:
actually I think that you guys are all getting yourselves (and Joss) very locked into one very small box when it fact he has tried to keep the imagery more universal than that.

That's a good point. I would hate to see Joss restrict his inspirarion to the events or issues of one particular era.

I think it's evident that he was thinking of the american civil war when he was creating the verse, but I'm sure he'd never let himself get creatively trapped by it.

DIRTYBROWNCOAT

Tuesday, January 11, 2005 1:04 AM

Quote:
- one faction seeking independence, the other an oppressive government not willing to let go of the citizens who want to be free.

Just want to mention, that watching all but the final three episodes on the DVD, I've gathered that the Alliance wasn't in power until they won the war. The Independence, as it was called, wasn't a faction of people who wanted to break free of the Alliance, it was the Alliance that was moving in on the Independence, trying to bring all the central planets under one rule.

Just how I interpreted it.

Simon: You...you came for us.
Mal: You're on my crew.
Simon: Right. I guess I just didn't...you don't even like me.
Mal: You're on my crew. Why we still talking about this?
-Safe

BROWNCOAT1

Tuesday, January 11, 2005 1:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DirtyBrowncoat:
Just want to mention, that watching all but the final three episodes on the DVD, I've gathered that the Alliance wasn't in power until they won the war. The Independence, as it was called, wasn't a faction of people who wanted to break free of the Alliance, it was the Alliance that was moving in on the Independence, trying to bring all the central planets under one rule.

Just how I interpreted it.

Odd. That is not the impression I got at all.

From what we have seen and read, the Alliance seems to have originated on Earth that was and that same government was behind the exodus to the stars when Earth became all but uninhabitable. Of course when they set up the Core worlds the Alliance is firmly in control.

What I surmised from the series is that the worlds out on the Rim got tired of paying taxes to a government back in the Core that did very little to improve their lot in life or the quality of said life. They opted for self rule and a break from the Alliance (sounds a bit like the Colonies break w/ England, no?). When the Alliance caught wind of this movement for independence, they were quick to send in troops, hence the war.

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Meet Up:
http://firefly.meetup.com/9/boards/

FREMDFIRMA

Tuesday, January 11, 2005 2:53 PM

There's also, imop - just a hint of flavor similar to the attempted annexation of ireland by the british.

The same way that folk kept moving further and further north to get out of the british sphere of influance comes to mind every time Mal speaks up about 'getting further out' to get away from the influance of the alliance.

Just my 2 cents,
-F

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