Solar System Vs. Galaxy

POSTED BY: MadJack
UPDATED: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 17:41
VIEWED: 40136
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YT

Wednesday, January 5, 2005 12:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jiltedtoo:
Even a planet with the orbit of Mars, would be darker at the equator then the earth.JT

Measureably, to a photocell? Well, sure but, noon on a tropical beach in summer is about a hundred times brighter than a well-lit room. Noon on a tropical beach on Mars would be about forty times as bright as a well-lit room.

Your irises will adjust.

Keep the Shiny Side Up

Wutzon: Bonnie Raitt, "I Can't Help You Now"

XENOCIDE

Wednesday, January 5, 2005 6:09 PM

Jujansin:

I think we're leaving something important out of the terafforming equation. Your leaving out the gravity technolgy. Serenity generated 1G when she was dead in the air during Out of Gas. If you can make any rock in the 'verse function at one G than it would be easy to terrafor 70+ bodies in the habitible range. What's more gravitiational fields could be used to focus or redirect solar energy outside the area we think of as habitable.

If gravity is a cheap commodity but FTL is unavailable then a single system and a fusion engine do just fine!

WYDRAZ

Wednesday, January 5, 2005 9:14 PM

I think JUJANSIN has the best thoery so far.

I still hold that one of the biggest flaws of the idea of One System is that there are other systems nearby... and well, it's just silly to leave all that expanse untouched!

If you've got the tech to leave the Solar system, why would you put all your eggs in one basket and colonize only one other star system? If you have the means, why not exploit it?

Remeber the episode with the shadow puppetry showing the ships flying off in all directions? Not just one direction... all directions. Even without FTL, there are bound to be other star systems colonized in the FF universe.

On top of that, if you can manipulate gravity to the extent that it seems, it's not a huge leap of faith to assume that FTL does exist. Joss doesn't sound too sure about Serenity having FTL... but that doesn't mean other ships don't.

Another thing... the "verse" isn't the universe unless you're talking about more than just one star system...

Oh, and play Strange Adventures in Infinite Space. http://digital-eel.com/sais

JUJANSIN

Monday, January 10, 2005 2:49 AM

Well, Xenocide, although a 1G gravitaional field for a small ship does not amount to a whole lot of energy, the generation of a 1G field for a whole planet or moonlet would require, in a conservative estimate, about 17 zillion assloads of energy. And even if humans could create such a gravitational field, they would not create it on a barren rock of a planet where there would be nearly nobody to take advantage of it(e.g. Whitefall). The only other way I see of creating that artificial gravity would be some sort of ultradense material, or regional gravitational generators. But still, those would take amounts of energy enormously disproportionate to the level and size of civilization. I'm certain that the Alliance would want better returns on its investment, colonization-wise.

And responding to Wydraz's post, thanks for the vote of confidence. Another idea, perhaps, that could allow for a fairly high concentration of 1G planets in a single system: a number of big gas giants, say, three or four, with hordes of moons, many of them appropriate for terraforming, then maybe a few free planets. That setup might conceivably hold perhaps twenty or more worlds in one system, and allow for a fairly big system for Serenity to kick around in. And if it is the case that there is no FTL, I have actually done the calculations, and yes, with a fusion engine with only, say, 0.5% mass-to-thrust conversion efficiency, just a few kilograms of reaction mass would be enough to get Serenity around a single system easily within the timeframes discussed.

PBI

Monday, January 10, 2005 4:03 AM

I have to agree with Grounded. It seems that Joss only fleshed only the detail required to drive the plot, and that only loosely. Which is fine, as it leaves things open for development later. The thing is, I think folks are taking the voiceover's a bit too literally, especially with this being Joss. When Book talks about find a new solar system and colonizing hundred of new Earths, that could also be a very broad, quick and dirty summation of history. Maybe they found a new system, which was the first Core planet, then spread out from there, to other, nearby systems in the local neighbourhood. Similarly, when Book speaks of the defeated Indies moving to the edge of the system, is he speaking literally, or referring to moving to the fringes (literally and figuratively) of the new political system?

If you can survive death, you can probably survive almost anything.

GAVIDA

Monday, January 10, 2005 3:52 PM

I am not in the "no-FTL"-Camp , but I think so far all the episodes took place in one solar system, we only saw a small fraction of the terraformed planets in the show.

I did put some thought into the solar system(s), the 'verse, the many moons and planets and the non-mentioning of FTL when I watched the show for the third or fourth time, discussing it with a friend.

Here is my theory:

There is FTL in the Firefly-'verse.
But only PDL (pretty damn large) ships, kind of carrierlike can perform FTL travel. It is expensive, the costs for fuel and energy are enormous, so there is a steep fare for ships that want to dock and do a FTL-travel.
As we all know, our BDHs aren't among the wealthiest, so they can not pay for a FTL-Ticket on an interstellar carrier (not at the time of the episodes, though )

This theory would put the "86 million miles" comment from the HOB-guy into the right perspective again as well, since it still would be quite some distance to travel with one of the ships that are only capable of sublight travel (I would call them "Innersystem Ships" or something like that)

Innersystem Ships travel fast, but they still need some of time to travel through a solar system.

Interstellar Ships that travel FTL could be too big to go into the systems themselves because of the gravity of the planets and moons, they need to stay in an orbit around the sun outside the outermost planet.

So for interstellar travel to one of the other systems you would need a fast Innersystem Ship that still needs quite some time to travel to the Interstellar Carrier, this means: Fuel to burn, food and water for the travel, fees for the transport to the other systems, again Fuel to burn to go to the new system, food and water again for the time needed.

Pretty expensive, I would bet. Not something a bunch of people who can not even buy all the spare parts needed to have them in the case of an emergengy could afford.

And if those interstellar travel routes are under Alliance control (and I bet they are) it would probably require a lot of papers and permits, hehe.

This is only my idea of course and if anyone sees to blatant flaws in it, please let me know

But for now I see it as as much a possible 'verse as having Serenity flying FTL or everything in one solar system

Keep flying,
Gavida

XENOCIDE

Monday, January 10, 2005 5:01 PM

Jujansin wrote:

Well, Xenocide, although a 1G gravitaional field for a small ship does not amount to a whole lot of energy, the generation of a 1G field for a whole planet or moonlet would require, in a conservative estimate, about 17 zillion assloads of energy.

Jajansin, In OoG serenity gave gravity on batteries alone. When she couldn't support life she still had workable G. I like the superheavy metal theory, but if G costs nothing on a starship (a cheap one at that) well... to quote jane: nothing times nothing is... nothing.

And even if humans could create such a gravitational field, they would not create it on a barren rock of a planet where there would be nearly nobody to take advantage of it(e.g. Whitefall). ...But still, those would take amounts of energy enormously disproportionate to the level and size of civilization. I'm certain that the Alliance would want better returns on its investment, colonization-wise.

Well, I don't know much about theoretical physics, but I know some history and some politics. Historically exploration and colonization have been REALLY espensive. Why do you think the Brits were miffed about the american revolution? We were just barely becoming profitable! Columbus' and Magellan's expeditions were not cheap either, but they brought huge future returns. Spain became the wealthiest of nations because of Columbus. My point is places like whitefall are long term investments. Governments will make those kinds of investments even when they are not immediately profitable. And that is assuming that G costs assloads.

So in one system, with some gas giants, an ass load of moons and some other small to moderately sized bodies with generated G and outer planets heated with gravitic lenses and impressive greenhouse effects 70 'worlds' (70 was the rough number from earlier in the thread) seems plausible. I think FTL might fit in the universe for Alliance cruisers and such. This might even explain their sparse appearance in the show. They might be tending other solar systems.
I just don't think serenity has anything faster than Fusion.

-Eli

If voting mattered, they'd make it illegal.

PBI

Monday, January 10, 2005 6:12 PM

I've always thought that the ships we've seen, with the possible exception of the Alliance cruisers, have been sublight ships, also. That would explain why a single Alliance cruiser would have such a huge patrol area, and why they hadn't crushed all opposition, because if it realy is/was one big system, we should have been seeing clouds of Alliance ships.

If you can survive death, you can probably survive almost anything.

IMEARLY

Monday, January 10, 2005 8:51 PM

I am very new to this site, and have been enjoying this post; however there is something that has been forgotten. I have here, the answer to our problem...

The closest star system to our own is the Alpha Centauri system, Proxima Centauri, Alpha Centauri A and Alpha Centauri B. they are approximately 4.36 light years or 1,536,605,000 miles away.
A Light year measured in miles is 669,600,000. If there were a massive tragedy today and we were forced to leave our planet to find another suitable system to colonize, we could only travel at a maximum of 17,500 miles per hour (This is the maximum speed of the space shuttle in space) at this speed it would take 87,806 YEARS to reach the Alpha Centauri system. FTL is not only a possibility in Firefly it is (fictionally speaking) a fact. This being said, with the ability to travel faster than light, there must then be colonies that stretch multiple star systems.

So you're a bounty hunter.
No, that ain't it at all.
Then what are you?
I'm a bounty hunter.

JUJANSIN

Monday, January 10, 2005 9:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by xenocide:
Jujansin wrote:

Well, Xenocide, although a 1G gravitaional field for a small ship does not amount to a whole lot of energy, the generation of a 1G field for a whole planet or moonlet would require, in a conservative estimate, about 17 zillion assloads of energy.

Jajansin, In OoG serenity gave gravity on batteries alone. When she couldn't support life she still had workable G. I like the superheavy metal theory, but if G costs nothing on a starship (a cheap one at that) well... to quote jane: nothing times nothing is... nothing.

While free gravity would be really nice, there's just no getting around the first law of thermodynamics, i.e. conservation of energy. You need to spend energy to exert a force on objects. And that means large gravitic fields would require colossal fusion reactors and a lot of fuel. In physics, there is no free lunch.

But in any case, if Joss said that it was in one big system, I would be fine with that. I mean, if humans had to leave the Sol system for a new one, I expect that they would use their telescopes and say: "Hey, that star has an insanely dense planetary cluster around it! Let's go there."

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