What are America's interests?

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Tuesday, June 2, 2026 17:48
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SECOND

Tuesday, May 5, 2020 6:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Carried over from http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=63473&p=31#1100
234

Quote:
SIGNYM: But I think I've made that point plenty of times. It's like asking "What are America's (or Americans') interests?" Since nobody even recognizes the category of "America" and "American" as meaningful (except to whip up hysteria about some perceived enemy) and nobody recognizes kinship with other Americans, I guess America is truly dead. Anyway, back on-topic.

SECOND: If "America is truly dead", then it has always been dead. Before the Civil War, slaves were 30% of the population in some states, 40% in others. As high as 57% in South Carolina. Ask yourself why the government let this happen to those people. Once you have imagined why it happened, then you will understand why in today's America 30%, 40%, and even more Americans live in despair

There was one historic reason why slavery was allowed in the USA: the Founding Fathers simply could not get the slave-owning colonies to fight against the British unless wealthy slave-owners got to continue their way of life (profit).

That there was slavery in the USA isn't an indictment of all, or even most, Americans at the time. Many northerners were against slavery either actively (Abolitionists) or tacitly and, in the end, many northerners fought and died in the Civil War which freed the slaves.

When people bring up slavery as some sort of indictment of today's Americans, I just kind of chuckle. "My people" didn't come to the USA until 1920 (at the earliest), so what did they have to do with slavery? And if blacks deserve some sort of reparations for wrongs done generations ago and we were to do a deep dive into historical records and find the descendants of slave-owning families and assign blame ... what about the descendants of northerners whose sons died in the Civil War? Do they deserve brownie points by this same post-fact assignment of blame or reward?

Anyway, please come up with a more cogent and recent explanation than some generalized guilt-tripping about something that the people of today had no involvement with.

I was trying to get you to think about why America, even to this day, treats the poorer half of its people like they are slaves, but you won't think about it, will you? Slaves in modern America don't get universal healthcare. Instead, their illnesses are treated like a charity or, maybe even a worse comparison, they are treated like sick pets at ASPCA. www.aspca.org

And slaves don't get paid well. Think why raising the Federal Minimum Wage to living wage is treated with so much hostility. www.aft.org/resolution/increase-federal-minimum-wage-living-wage

Quote:
There was one historic reason why slavery was allowed in the USA: the Founding Fathers simply could not get the slave-owning colonies to fight against the British unless wealthy slave-owners got to continue their way of life (profit).

What a load of bullshit, Signym. The Continental Army never numbered more than 17,000 men out of a population of 2,400,000. The Slave States almost got a free ride during the Revolution. Funny thing about that, the American Generals were slave-owners protecting their property from the British, who would soon after the Revolution free all slaves in British controlled colonies. The Founding Fathers such as Jefferson, Washington, Monroe didn't want that happening to their slaves.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Army#Soldiers

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

SIGNYM

Tuesday, May 5, 2020 7:51 PM

Quote:
SIGNYM:
In any case, I honsetly think Americans can agree on just about everything of importance: A safe place to sleep, nutritious food to eat and clean water to drink, a way to earn our place in society, support in illness and disability, environmental remediation, infrastrucural repair, and agency over our individual and collective futures.

The question isn't "what", but "how". HOW do we achieve a future that we probably mostly agree on? That seems to be the sticky wicket!

SIX: Unless you can somehow lobotomize every human being you're never going to get it.
Because we don't agree on it. Everybody has their own opinions, ideas, perceptions and motives. And most people aren't genuine about any of that, even with themselves.

First of all, you seem to think that with 327 million Americans there are 350 million opinions.

Au contraire, SIX.

First, MOST opinions fall into several categories (Hate to tell you this, you're not all that unique!) and on this board they fall into two

a) Big Daddy Government is supposed to take care of everything
b) Rugged Individual Effort and the Fight of All Against All

Given that we have all been subject to propaganda our entire lives, most people's opinions (ideologies) have been "kettled" into a few narrow avenues.

Second, not all opinions are equal. It's like science ... there are only a few procedures that yield success. Or maybe baking: If we all agree that we want a particular kind of cake, there are only a few recipes that make it.

So far, I would say that given how far away we are from where we want to be, whatever recipe we were using has CLEARLY not worked to yield the desired results!

Quote:
Most people that don't have it want it, but when they got it they still wouldn't be satisfied and would always want more. Most people that have all of that don't really want everyone else to have that because it diminishes how "special" they are. They are just virtue signalling for clout or to ease their own guilt for having what others don't have. But they don't really want others to have it too.

Well, that's exactly an example of how your opinion has been "kettled". You believe that because YOU believe something about people it must be true of ALL people, that no other POV is possible.

I find it interesting that you describe your motivation using the exact same word that KIKI used to describe you (special), so I wonder whether this is just a great case of projection. Secondly, don't you recall my astonishment watching the Chinese military parade and how much the same eveyone looked? The Chinese, for example, don't place that much emphasis on being different. What they REALLY want is to fit in It's a different national ethos than ours. The only similarity is that we both believe that we're the greatest thing since sliced bread.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

#WEARAMASK

6IXSTRINGJACK

Tuesday, May 5, 2020 8:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
SIGNYM:
In any case, I honsetly think Americans can agree on just about everything of importance: A safe place to sleep, nutritious food to eat and clean water to drink, a way to earn our place in society, support in illness and disability, environmental remediation, infrastrucural repair, and agency over our individual and collective futures.

The question isn't "what", but "how". HOW do we achieve a future that we probably mostly agree on? That seems to be the sticky wicket!

SIX: Unless you can somehow lobotomize every human being you're never going to get it.
Because we don't agree on it. Everybody has their own opinions, ideas, perceptions and motives. And most people aren't genuine about any of that, even with themselves.

First of all, you seem to think that with 327 million Americans there are 350 million opinions.

Au contraire, SIX.

First, MOST opinions fall into several categories (Hate to tell you this, you're not all that unique!) and on this board they fall into two

a) Big Daddy Government is supposed to take care of everything
b) Rugged Individual Effort and the Fight of All Against All

Given that we have all been subject to propaganda our entire lives, most people's opinions (ideologies) have been "kettled" into a few narrow avenues.

Second, not all opinions are equal. It's like science ... there are only a few procedures that yield success. Or maybe baking: If we all agree that we want a particular kind of cake, there are only a few recipes that make it.

So far, I would say that given how far away we are from where we want to be, whatever recipe we were using has CLEARLY not worked to yield the desired results!

Quote:
Most people that don't have it want it, but when they got it they still wouldn't be satisfied and would always want more. Most people that have all of that don't really want everyone else to have that because it diminishes how "special" they are. They are just virtue signalling for clout or to ease their own guilt for having what others don't have. But they don't really want others to have it too.

Well, that's exactly an example of how your opinion has been "kettled". You believe that because YOU believe something about people it must be true of ALL people, that no other POV is possible.

First of all, I find it interesting that you describe your motivation using the exact same word that KIKI used to describe you (special), so I wonder whether this is just a great case of projection. Secondly, don't you recall my astonishment watching the Chinese military parade and how much the same eveyone looked? The Chinese, for example, don't place that much emphasis on being different. What they REALLY want is to fit in It's a different national ethos than ours. The only similarity is that we both believe that we're the greatest thing since sliced bread.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

#WEARAMASK

You seem to be confused as to the point you're trying to make.

And I don't have any motivation regarding this topic, since this is the way things always were and the way things always will be.

I didn't make the rules.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

SIGNYM

Tuesday, May 5, 2020 9:12 PM

Quote:
SIX: You seem to be confused as to the point you're trying to make.

Not at all.

Quote:
SIX: I didn't make the rules.

Why not? This is a democracy after all, so maybe you should.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

#WEARAMASK

SECOND

Tuesday, May 5, 2020 11:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:

I find it interesting that you describe your motivation using the exact same word that KIKI used to describe you (special), so I wonder whether this is just a great case of projection. Secondly, don't you recall my astonishment watching the Chinese military parade and how much the same eveyone looked? The Chinese, for example, don't place that much emphasis on being different. What they REALLY want is to fit in It's a different national ethos than ours. The only similarity is that we both believe that we're the greatest thing since sliced bread.

I was once, 50 years ago, expecting a base on the Moon by now, but then Americans lost interest. Too expensive. Too much work. Too risky. Same with the idea of not treating the lower half of Americans like they are slaves. American idealism evaporated. It was too much effort. Too expensive.

Then I was reminded today in an editorial why great things aren't attempted by any level of American government. Are stupid things like the Iraq War attempted? Sure. There is always money for stupidity, but it is mostly private citizens who will try to be great, not the larger groups such as the Nation, or a state, or a small city. Those groups won't even try. There are too many citizens who say "NO!" to any effort. Why is "NO!" their constant and unending answer to every good idea? Is it because America has become Weak and Sniveling?
www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2020/05/has-america-become-weak-and-sni
veling/

One of the things the COVID-19 pandemic has highlighted is the American public’s unwillingness these days to see a fight through. Consider:

1 After only a few weeks of lockdowns, Americans seem barely willing to continue fighting COVID-19.
2 After the financial crash, Americans were willing to support only a half-baked stimulus, and for less than a year, before they panicked over the national debt and supported it no longer.
3 Americans gave up on the Iraq War very quickly after not winning an instant victory. By 2004 even supporters had gotten tired of it.

All of these things have a political valence to them. Conservatives fought the stimulus from the beginning and lockdowns within a few weeks. Liberals mostly opposed the Iraq War from the beginning. This obviously makes it way harder to demand sacrifices from the public for a long period.

This is hardly unique to Americans and hardly unique to politically volatile topics. Still, it’s hard not to think that it’s getting worse—both because Americans are too comfortable and partisan polarity has become so pervasive. It took many years for people to get tired of, for example, World War II, the Cold War, and the Vietnam War. Probably not coincidentally, all three had broad bipartisan support among the mainstream.

Asking for sacrifice is always hard, but you’d think that something like a deadly pandemic would finally be enough to do it. Surely for a few months at least. But after it was inexplicably turned into a partisan affair, half the country started to turn against it despite overwhelming evidence from around the world about what needed to be done.

It’s hard to think of anything less inherently partisan than a pandemic. It’s also hard to think of anything better suited to a purely expert response. And yet experts are mostly used as props by the White House and the response has become almost comically partisan.

Is there anything left that would bring liberals and conservatives together to demand some kind of sacrifice from the American public? And even if that happened, would the public respond? I’m starting to wonder.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

1KIKI

Wednesday, May 6, 2020 4:09 AM

Somewhat off topic, deleted

Though this probably belongs more in the new deadly ... thread, so I'll post it there.

SIGNYM

Wednesday, May 6, 2020 1:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:

I find it interesting that you describe your motivation using the exact same word that KIKI used to describe you (special), so I wonder whether this is just a great case of projection. Secondly, don't you recall my astonishment watching the Chinese military parade and how much the same eveyone looked? The Chinese, for example, don't place that much emphasis on being different. What they REALLY want is to fit in It's a different national ethos than ours. The only similarity is that we both believe that we're the greatest thing since sliced bread.

SECOND: I was once, 50 years ago, expecting a base on the Moon by now, but then Americans lost interest. Too expensive. Too much work. Too risky. Same with the idea of not treating the lower half of Americans like they are slaves. American idealism evaporated. It was too much effort. Too expensive.

Then I was reminded today in an editorial why great things aren't attempted by any level of American government. Are stupid things like the Iraq War attempted? Sure. There is always money for stupidity, but it is mostly private citizens who will try to be great, not the larger groups such as the Nation, or a state, or a small city. Those groups won't even try. There are too many citizens who say "NO!" to any effort. Why is "NO!" their constant and unending answer to every good idea? Is it because America has become Weak and Sniveling?
www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2020/05/has-america-become-weak-and-sni
veling/

One of the things the COVID-19 pandemic has highlighted is the American public’s unwillingness these days to see a fight through. Consider:

1 After only a few weeks of lockdowns, Americans seem barely willing to continue fighting COVID-19.
2 After the financial crash, Americans were willing to support only a half-baked stimulus, and for less than a year, before they panicked over the national debt and supported it no longer.
3 Americans gave up on the Iraq War very quickly after not winning an instant victory. By 2004 even supporters had gotten tired of it.

All of these things have a political valence to them. Conservatives fought the stimulus from the beginning and lockdowns within a few weeks. Liberals mostly opposed the Iraq War from the beginning. This obviously makes it way harder to demand sacrifices from the public for a long period.

This is hardly unique to Americans and hardly unique to politically volatile topics. Still, it’s hard not to think that it’s getting worse—both because Americans are too comfortable and partisan polarity has become so pervasive. It took many years for people to get tired of, for example, World War II, the Cold War, and the Vietnam War. Probably not coincidentally, all three had broad bipartisan support among the mainstream.

Asking for sacrifice is always hard, but you’d think that something like a deadly pandemic would finally be enough to do it. Surely for a few months at least. But after it was inexplicably turned into a partisan affair, half the country started to turn against it despite overwhelming evidence from around the world about what needed to be done.

It’s hard to think of anything less inherently partisan than a pandemic. It’s also hard to think of anything better suited to a purely expert response. And yet experts are mostly used as props by the White House and the response has become almost comically partisan.

Is there anything left that would bring liberals and conservatives together to demand some kind of sacrifice from the American public? And even if that happened, would the public respond? I’m starting to wonder.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

I left your quotes up in long-form because they circle around an untrue assumption about how Americans "SHOULD" behave.

I DO NOT BELIEVE AMERICANS SHOULD SACRIFICE THEMSELVES OR THEIR HARD WORK OR ANY PORTION OF THEIR PAYCHECK UNLE

SECOND

Wednesday, May 6, 2020 4:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I left your quotes up in long-form because they circle around an untrue assumption about how Americans "SHOULD" behave.

I DO NOT BELIEVE AMERICANS SHOULD SACRIFICE THEMSELVES OR THEIR HARD WORK OR ANY PORTION OF THEIR PAYCHECK UNLESS IT IS TO THEIR BENEFIT.

WHEN ASKED TO DO ANYTHING, THE FIRST QUESTION SHOULD BE "WHAT'S IN IT FOR ME?"

IF AMERICANS ROUTINELY ASKED THAT QUESTION AND REFUSED TO BUDGE UNTIL THEY GOT AN ANSWER THAT MADE SENSE TO THEM, MANY EGREGIOUS MISTAKES WOULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED.

YOU MIGHT HAVE NOTICED THAT I DID NOT ASK "HOW CAN AMERICANS SLIT THEIR WRISTS ON THE ALTAR OF PROGRESS, OR PROFIT, OR FOR ELECTRONIC DOODADS, OR FOR MINDLESS PATRIOTISM?" BUT "WHAT ARE AMERICA'S INTERESTS? WHAT BENEFITS THEM, SHORT AND LONG TERM?"

Everyone seems to think that we are all so very different that we're all like non-intersecting Venn diagrams - no overlap.

But in reality we have MANY needs in common, and the only real disagreement seems to be HOW we get there, not where we're going.

Since whatever we've attempted so far ... mindless patriotism, personal greed, liberalism, conservatism, Big Daddy Government, Rugged Individualism, gun ownership, trans rights... seems to have gotten us EXACTLY NOWHERE maybe it's time to set aside our tribes and start that long-overdue conversation about where we're going and where we WANT to go, and HOW to get there?

Because that discussion is so long-overdue, and the political climate is so fraught (charged, distressed) it would likely be a conversation that would take YEARS to reach not only common goals but also agreed-on approaches AND checkpoints to see if we're heading in the direction "we" want/

So, better late than never! is my view.

WHAT ARE AMERICA'S INTERESTS?

WHAT DO WE NEED? HOW WILL BE GET THERE?

*****

BTW, it is my observation that finger-pointing, blame-laying, and internal division only happen when things are falling apart ... when the team loses a series of games, or the Party loses a series of elections, or the elite suddenly start running out of money and the rest of us are taking a hit in living standards.

All of this squabbling is really a symptom of falling expectations. That's why the next generations want to see the boomers die off, and the CIA is contending with the military, and men are pitted against women, the globalists against the nationalists, and so forth.

It is precisely BECAUSE our living standards and expectations are falling apart that we should STOP partisan squabbling and general ill will (even tho fighting over control is a natural reaction to diminished resources) and figure out HOW TO SOLVE PROBLEMS. DOING WHAT WE'RE DOING IS GETTING US NOWHERE.

Signym asks, "What is America's Interests?" Everybody gets two bottles of water per day and 2,000 calories. 25 square feet of shelter per person. One change of clothes. If you want more, find a job with a rich person. Maybe working on his farm, picking cotton by hand if you are not a PhD or Engineer.

Signym, with your formulation of the problem as "in reality we have MANY needs in common, and the only real disagreement seems to be HOW we get there, not where we're going", some rich guy will define your job for you and your needs and how much you will be paid, assuming he lets you work for him. America ends up exactly where it is now. Minimum wage is $7.25. No health insurance for the poor, but there are charity hospitals. And half the country live like slaves. Those Americans who don't work for a rich guy, like me, end up owning the country and the Federal government. That is how rich guys like Washington, Jefferson, and Madison, slave-owners, designed the Constitution and that's how they ended up as President. America has the same Constitution and the same kind of rich guys making decisions today. And more people who live like slaves than in 1776, except

SIGNYM

Friday, May 8, 2020 5:38 PM

Quote:
Signym, with your formulation of the problem as "in reality we have MANY needs in common, and the only real disagreement seems to be HOW we get there, not where we're going", some rich guy will define your job for you and your needs and how much you will be paid, blah blah blah....

SECOND, why do you post "some rich guy WILL define..." like this is going to happen some time in the future???

WE'RE ALREADY THERE.

Some rich guy is ALREADY defining our pay, our prospects, what our future looks like.

I've been trying ... fruitlessly, apparently .... to point out that this endless bickering over "who has it worse? White males or hetero females? Whites or blacks? Trans or gay?" is getting us NOWHERE. All it's doing is allowing that rich guy to CONTINUE to define our future for us.

I only recognize a few categories whose interests are categorically different:

Non-citizens. Except for promising ... and KEEPING our promise ... not to keep fucking their nations over, we have no say on how their nations progress internally, and they have no say in ours.

The young (babies and children) who can't produce but have the potential
The old and infirm, sick and disabled, who can't pull their weight but have a history of producing
The rentier capitalist and industrial capitalist who steal the production of others

So far, only KIKI and JO seem to "get it". They are the only ones who can (apparently) even think of Americans as a whole and not get hung up in these micro-identities that have been crafted for us.

The reality is, whether you're a Democrat/Republican/other; white/black/other; male/female/other; etc, as goes the nation, so do you.

So, yanno,it might be useful to raise your eyes from the row that you're hoeing to which you've been appointed, and look at horizon.

What do we need? Where are we going? How do we get to where we need to go?

I've provided MY list about what I think we need, to seed the discussion. It's not the end-all and be-all of possibilities.

Think of this as a brainstorming thread ... something to get the ideas flowing. (JO has plenty! Go look at his website!)

No ideas will be discounted!

EVERYONE needs to start thinking about ...not their future, but OUR future. Otherwise the some rich guy will CONTINUE to define who you are, and what you and your children able to become.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

#WEARAMASK

6IXSTRINGJACK

Friday, May 8, 2020 7:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:

I've been trying ... fruitlessly, apparently .... to point out that this endless bickering over "who has it worse? White males or hetero females? Whites or blacks? Trans or gay?" is getting us NOWHERE. All it's doing is allowing that rich guy to CONTINUE to define our future for us.

I only recognize a few categories whose interests are categorically different:

Non-citizens. Except for promising ... and KEEPING our promise ... not to keep fucking their nations over, we have no say on how their nations progress internally, and they have no say in ours.

The young (babies and children) who can't produce but have the potential
The old and infirm, sick and disabled, who can't pull their weight but have a history of producing
The rentier capitalist and industrial capitalist who steal the production of others

So far, only KIKI and JO seem to "get it". They are the only ones who can (apparently) even think of Americans as a whole and not get hung up in these micro-identities that have been crafted for us.

That's easy for you to say, and also easy for you not to recognize the fact that your generation is the last one that will go out with the things that you've got, most of which came off using your houses for ATMs until the housing market crashed and off of ponzi schemes and insurance claims (another ponzi scheme) that the generations after you have to foot the bill for.

Here's a graph. I know you like graphs.

Bonus graph.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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