holtz
POSTED BY: est120
UPDATED: Saturday, July 9, 2005 13:16
VIEWED: 8905
PAGE 3 of 3
and I think getting satisfaction out of torturing or killing someone for whatever reason is either evil or sick or maybe insane. it certainly is not a good thing, no matter if the one being tortured or killed is a demon, evil, or whatever else. it's about the act, the motivations for it and the feelings associated with it not about whom it's done to.
if I have to kill someone or something because I have to, I will do it. but I'm sure I won't feel happy or satisfied or anything else like that about it. maybe relieved that the danger's over. and surely sad that it had to come to that. and possibly sick about it all.
but revenge and the justification of it is nothing new. it's a wide spread believe. I just don't share that believe. and that makes me think that Holtz is evil. Justin seems more weak and guided by ignorance and passion. Holtz seems in control and very calculating.
Idefix
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"Holtz seems in control and very calculating."
That's not necessarily an indication of a sound mind.
Anyway I disagree with the idea that his desire for revenge is based in evil. Angelus and Darla visited terrible psychological harm on him and he dedicated his life to bringing them to justice. It doesn't take much imagination to see how that would turn into obsession. Basically, as proven by his agreement with Sahjahn, his entire life was consumed in the pursuit of this goal. The fact that this ends up twisting his perception of right and wrong is hardly surprising, in fact I'd say it's expected.
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Quote:
Originally posted by est120:
okay, yet another angel post. what are people's opinions of holtz? he seems to be driven completely by the concept of "you hurt me, so i am going to hurt you even more". his quest is not so much about stopping angelus and darla (and other vampires) from killing people, but rather to torture them with a kind of revenge motive since they killed his family. holtz seemingly has a number of opportunities to kill angelus or darla and yet he makes the standard TV villain mistake in that he talks too much or takes too long and thus opens the door for the inevitable angelus escape. my question is do you feel this makes the character more interesting or more villainous? do people feel this revenge sentiment is completely justified?
Holtz is not really evil, even angel see's his motive. Holtz has a right to want revenge against angelus or even angel for that matter. Holtz's entire concept is angel and darla will pay as much as he can make them though there is no way he can make them suffer the horrors he did... until he see angel has a son. He did not let angel go out of sympathy because he knows what its like to be a father like i originally though but instead he let angel go because he saw at that moment the one thing he could do in order to make him pay just as much as he did, he could make angel feel the way he did when his family was killed.
"You can live with a man for fourty years , share his meals, talk on every subject, then tie him up, and hold him over the volanoes edge. And on that day, you will finally meet the man"
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Holtz started out as a good man, at least by the standards of his time, which is radically different than our time. a hard man, a dedicated and pious man, a great vampire hunter
after angel and darla destroyed his family it became personal, twisted, and touched through with evil.
that he made a deal with a demon to get his revenge was a definite sign that he had lost the mission, and he just went downhill from there. spending 16 years in a hell dimension and then giving his own life just to screw with angel's head.
screwing around with torture and revenge is evil, if only because it leaves the opportunity for them to do more damage if they escape. Just put 'em down quickly, like wesley did with knox
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I think revenge is never justified. If we can't forgive others for the wrongs they have done us, then we then become evil too
2 things. 1, you presume that we're not part evil to begin with? I think every human has the potential for some evil in them.
2. Revenge is NEVER justified? I get what you're meaning, but I find that view a bit overly simplistic and utopian. Real world don't work like that.
Just my 2 cents.
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:
I think revenge is never justified. If we can't forgive others for the wrongs they have done us, then we then become evil too
2 things. 1, you presume that we're not part evil to begin with? I think every human has the potential for some evil in them.
2. Revenge is NEVER justified? I get what you're meaning, but I find that view a bit overly simplistic and utopian. Real world don't work like that.
Just my 2 cents.
We all have the potential to be evil. Do I think in the world people feel justified in their revenge? Absolutely. Do I think it is right? No. We have a choice. We can choose to forgive. I've seen too many people destroy their lives because they couldn't forgive someone. Instead, the became bitter, angry, humans who no longer had anything to contribute to others.
NY/NJ Browncoats: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/firefly_nyc
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