holtz
POSTED BY: est120
UPDATED: Saturday, July 9, 2005 13:16
VIEWED: 8905
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okay, yet another angel post. what are people's opinions of holtz? he seems to be driven completely by the concept of "you hurt me, so i am going to hurt you even more". his quest is not so much about stopping angelus and darla (and other vampires) from killing people, but rather to torture them with a kind of revenge motive since they killed his family. holtz seemingly has a number of opportunities to kill angelus or darla and yet he makes the standard TV villain mistake in that he talks too much or takes too long and thus opens the door for the inevitable angelus escape. my question is do you feel this makes the character more interesting or more villainous? do people feel this revenge sentiment is completely justified?
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I think he's primary motive is pure revenge. He is driven by hate and wants to inflict as much pain as he can on Angel and Darla.
I think revenge is never justified. If we can't forgive others for the wrongs they have done us, then we then become evil too.
I like that we have a motive for him being evil and know why he feels justified in his behavior. Much more interesting than a character that is just an evil demon.
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I never considered Holtz evil, because he's avenging the murder of his family. He's not out to randomly cause pain or death for fun like the vampires, nor is he in it to profit in some way. He's also not in it just because he can. He's not evil. He wants revenge, and he sure deserves it after what Darla and Angelus did.
The worst thing, IMO, about what Angelus and Darla did was to kill Holtz's daughter. Not that killing Holtz's family wasn't bad, but Holtz has every right to hunt down Angelus and Darla for what they did to his child. I think that was one aspect of Angelus and Darla (and Spike and Dru for that matter) that made them *totally* evil: killing children and babies.
If anything, Holtz is completely justified in what he has done to track down Angel (who he still believes is Angelus) and kill him.
Of course Holtz is not going to kill the lead of the show, but some part of me always regretted he didn't do more.
And Est, tell us where you are in your Angel viewing so whenever we respond we know where to put spoilers.
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"My office! Burgled! Plundered! Purloined! Ha ha ha...loins."
-- Phil Sebben, Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law
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Quote:
Originally posted by RhymePhile:
I never considered Holtz evil, because he's
And Est, tell us where you are in your Angel viewing so whenever we respond we know where to put spoilers.
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"My office! Burgled! Plundered! Purloined! Ha ha ha...loins."
-- Phil Sebben, Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law
gather 'round young ones and let me tell you the tale of my bizzare angel viewership. last may when the series finale of angel was about to air, i had seen one or two partial episodes. i was intrigued, but did not watch regularly because i kept forgetting. anyway, i missed the first half of the finale, watched the last half and loved it. i watched the rebroadcast of the entire finale a couple weeks later. when i moved, i got basic cable and started getting TNT which i discovered was showing angel reruns at 5pm every weekday (save the occasional golf tournament). when i started taping the 5pm episodes, they were about midway through season 3. later, i discovered that WB would show one rerun at 4pm on saturday afternoons. i taped a couple of those too (which was at the end of season 2). i gave up on that when TNT started showing reruns at 8am on weekdays and starting with the pilot. i also taped the 5pm until the series finale which was about a month ago and now i just tape the 8am (the 5pm has started over again at season 1). currently, the 8am rerun is about 3 or 4 episodes into season 3 so there are only about 6-7 episodes that i have not seen. i also missed the 100th episode in season 5 because i did not set my VCR correctly. anyway, to make a long story short (too late, i know), do not worry about spoilers, i have no problems with them.
on that note, watching the reruns in order from the pilot has been much more gratifying, even if i know what happens later.
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Oh, you missed the 100th episode in Season 5, huh? There's important stuff happening in that one. You'll need to rent it as *soon* as Season 5 comes to DVD in February, if only for the great line when Angel is called a "tit". Bwahahahahaaa!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"My office! Burgled! Plundered! Purloined! Ha ha ha...loins."
-- Phil Sebben, Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law
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Quote:
Originally posted by RhymePhile:
Oh, you missed the 100th episode in Season 5, huh? There's important stuff happening in that one. You'll need to rent it as *soon* as Season 5 comes to DVD in February, if only for the great line when Angel is called a "tit". Bwahahahahaaa!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"My office! Burgled! Plundered! Purloined! Ha ha ha...loins."
-- Phil Sebben, Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law
true. i know it was a big episode. you should have seen my face when i started my tape and ended up watching maury povich or something stupid like that. i did read the episode summary from buffy-vs-angel.com which is not the same as seeing it, but it helped the rest of the season make sense.
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I thought the 100th ep was cack.
Anyway, more to the point, Holtz is not just intent on getting revenge, he is obsessed with it. Simply showing up and killing both vampires without relishing it isn't going to happen. Yes they probably should have done more, have him grieviously wound Angel perhaps, but I don't think the effect was lost. The one thing that still nags me about it is the last line uttered in Lullaby...
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Quote:Really?
Originally posted by RhymePhile:
I never considered Holtz evil, because he's avenging the murder of his family. He's not out to randomly cause pain or death for fun like the vampires, nor is he in it to profit in some way. He's also not in it just because he can. He's not evil. He wants revenge, and he sure deserves it after what Darla and Angelus did.
So while I was at work, I typed up this long explanation of my thoughts on this. The network puked and I caught my explanation in my lap...
Then I get home and here's exactly the opposite of what I wiped off my pants!
See, if someone were good and they lost their family as Holtz did, in my opinion, they would not go out and hunt down those responsible to get revenge. They would not capture and torture those responsible. Destroying them as the demons that they are, yes, that makes sense and is what a good person would do.
An evil person, however, would go out and torment them, torture them, maybe even, oh, say kidnap their child and corrupt the youth's mind to hate his father...
In my mind, Holtz had a number of choices, and at each of these points he made the choice that a person of evil would make. For example, when he discovered that Angel was cursed, that he had a soul, he decided that it was an opportunity to be taken advantage of in his efforts to bring Angel pain and misery, not as a moral question of right and wrong (as Sahjhan assumed he would). That is the act of an evil man...
But hey, that's just my opinion.
Rabit
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Given his state of mind after what Angelus and Darla had done to him, I don't think Holtz can be held responsible for his actions.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rabit:
*snip* An evil person, however, would go out and torment them, torture them, maybe even, oh, say kidnap their child and corrupt the youth's mind to hate his father...
Holtz, if you remember, let Connor live after he saw Darla dust herself to give birth to him. He could have killed them all in that alley, but let them walk away. Holtz wanted Angel dead, but instead decided that his revenge would be to claim Connor for the child he lost to Angelus. Warped thinking, true, but Holtz has had years and years to think and brood about the loss of his loved ones to Angelus and Darla.
But I suppose in my mind -- and this is why I empathize with Holtz -- forgiving Angel (even though he has a soul) is similar to forgiving a murderer who has found religion in prison and is a "changed man," much like the Angel/Angelus character duality. Having a soul and trying to make up for all the pain and misery Angelus caused doesn't do anything for the people already dead, and I think Holtz sees this.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"My office! Burgled! Plundered! Purloined! Ha ha ha...loins."
-- Phil Sebben, Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law
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